Ongoing US Mass Shooting Thread 2

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Envitro

The one thing I'll say, regardless of guns, is is anybody asking the question of "Why?"

Why is this happening so frequently? It's not like the gun or the availability of guns causes people to go on a shooting rampage?

I'm really interested in the root cause of this systemic issue in the U.S.

Now, I guess we have to be really careful since we can't talk about the U.S. as a contiguous nation when it comes to gun laws, cultural, or socio-economic factors, but I'd love to hear some theories on why this is an issue in the U.S.

Look at American culture (forgive my generalizations here). The strong and the free, liberty for all, the greatest country in the world, anyone can make it, rags to riches stories, celebrity worship, exceptionalism, etc. Americans are conditioned from birth that they are the greatest and are bold, brash, confident and full of self-belief, even when entirely unwarranted. It is these qualities that have inspired true greatness and amazing achievements by many amazing people, but also allow stupid, troubled, or angry people to act out their beliefs with no self-reflection or filters. More hubris, less shame.

The reality is that most people are just average (in fact 50% are below average ) and will never achieve the success that is their 'entitlement'. Obviously this is true in any society but i feel that self-expectations are just higher in the US and arguably harder to meet than elsewhere. Then there's a whole industry around stoking these disappointments and finding blame. While there is a strong aspect of racism, xenophobia, and intolerance to this it is more than that, it's a culture of grievance. People complain, people sue, people road rage, people blame government and resist authority. If I don't achieve the success I deserve it's someone else's fault. (and yes it often is someone else's fault with the more extreme disparity in economic and social conditions). Add in mental illness as an amplifier.

America has a culture of violence. Revolution, civil war, glorification of the military, continuous military conflict, gang warfare, violent movies, violent video games, personal conflict, settling things 'man to man'. It's no surprise when someone with a grievance turns to violence, whether it's against immigrants who stole their job, gays who are predating their kids, teachers who bullied them, etc. While these factors exist elsewhere they are amplified in the US.

Now add in guns, both their availability and the fetishization of them. AR15s are an efficient killing machine and look cool AF, just like the weapons we see on the big screen and use on the small screen everyday. The ones that are fondled and polished before every battle scene, the ones that we always pick in call of duty (when is the last time you used a bolt action rifle in a FPS game?). The ones that every hero uses to go out with a blaze of glory, killing all those people who deserve to die. Yes we all see those same movies and play those games but we don't all have the easy ability to recreate them.

Put it all together - a high degree of entitlement, low degree of self-awareness (among some), unrealistic expectations, violence as mainstream, and a ubiquitous gun culture - and it's no wonder there are more violent outbreaks in the US than elsewhere.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

I would think the threat of being shot would scare off a robber, you could pull out a pellet gun and chances are they'd flea. You could also shoot your handgun in the air, or blast them in the shin. The thing is when you have the gun you now have the power, it doesn't have to end with killing anyone.

While you are probably correct, in that high pressure scenario MANY things can go wrong. Like you try to blast a perp in the shin, in the dark, and you miss. The round then goes through the 2x4 wall and into your kids room. Or in your panic, you forget to turn the safety and drop the gun.

That's assuming your kids have never accessed your gun up to that point, because it's easily accessible, or you haven't used it on yourself or your wife because of global economic downturn, infidelity, work stress, etc.

The romanticized scenario of defending your home or self with a gun is not a realistic scenario at all.

[Galakanokis]

No idea how to embed. Tough watch. Teacher that survived. Another tough one is the doctor or something like that describing some children having most of theirs heads blown off, used the word decapitated. But sure, self defense or freedom or whatever horse#### the defenders can think of.

https://twitter.com/MercedesLV/statu...84cZEseCOw5Kzg

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by galakanokis

no idea how to embed. Tough watch. Teacher that survived. Another tough one is the doctor or something like that describing some children having most of theirs heads blown off, used the word decapitated. But sure, self defense or freedom or whatever horse#### the defenders can think of.

https://twitter.com/mercedeslv/statu...84czesecow5kzg

https://twitter.com/user/status/1534381709084565504

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Envitro

I have been sharing nothing but facts with you fine folks.

You mean how you suggested Finland, Switzerland, and Canada were in any way comparable to the US in terms of civilian gun ownership per capita, when they clearly aren't?

Look, you like guns. Cool. But that bias is really showing through some massive blind-spots in your arguments.

[btimbit]

This is why I've largely avoided this thread.

There's no question the US needs stricter gun control, but people get too sidetracked comparing countries, or talking about what we need to do in Canada despite not having the same cultural issues.

It's perfectly reasonable to think the US needs much stricter gun control, while also thinking our own has gotten to be a bit much. But this thread is about the US, how anyone can go 'this is fine' is just insane

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Look at American culture (forgive my generalizations here). The strong and the free, liberty for all, the greatest country in the world, anyone can make it, rags to riches stories, celebrity worship, exceptionalism, etc. Americans are conditioned from birth that they are the greatest and are bold, brash, confident and full of self-belief, even when entirely unwarranted. It is these qualities that have inspired true greatness and amazing achievements by many amazing people, but also allow stupid, troubled, or angry people to act out their beliefs with no self-reflection or filters. More hubris, less shame.

The reality is that most people are just average (in fact 50% are below average ) and will never achieve the success that is their 'entitlement'. Obviously this is true in any society but i feel that self-expectations are just higher in the US and arguably harder to meet than elsewhere. Then there's a whole industry around stoking these disappointments and finding blame. While there is a strong aspect of racism, xenophobia, and intolerance to this it is more than that, it's a culture of grievance. People complain, people sue, people road rage, people blame government and resist authority. If I don't achieve the success I deserve it's someone else's fault. (and yes it often is someone else's fault with the more extreme disparity in economic and social conditions). Add in mental illness as an amplifier.

America has a culture of violence. Revolution, civil war, glorification of the military, continuous military conflict, gang warfare, violent movies, violent video games, personal conflict, settling things 'man to man'. It's no surprise when someone with a grievance turns to violence, whether it's against immigrants who stole their job, gays who are predating their kids, teachers who bullied them, etc. While these factors exist elsewhere they are amplified in the US.

Now add in guns, both their availability and the fetishization of them. AR15s are an efficient killing machine and look cool AF, just like the weapons we see on the big screen and use on the small screen everyday. The ones that are fondled and polished before every battle scene, the ones that we always pick in call of duty (when is the last time you used a bolt action rifle in a FPS game?). The ones that every hero uses to go out with a blaze of glory, killing all those people who deserve to die. Yes we all see those same movies and play those games but we don't all have the easy ability to recreate them.

Put it all together - a high degree of entitlement, low degree of self-awareness (among some), unrealistic expectations, violence as mainstream, and a ubiquitous gun culture - and it's no wonder there are more violent outbreaks in the US than elsewhere.

Excellent post.

"Culture of Grievance" has now entered my lexicon.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

You mean how you suggested Finland, Switzerland, and Canada were in any way comparable to the US in terms of civilian gun ownership per capita, when they clearly aren't?

Look, you like guns. Cool. But that bias is really showing through some massive blind-spots in your arguments.

I didn't' say that they were comparable, just that they're high compared to the rest of the world. The U.S. is its own category, without a doubt.

The rest of the countries I mentioned, including Canada both have similarly high civilian gun ownership rates to one another, especially compared to most of the rest of the world.

No I don't like guns.... I don't like any inanimate object.
It's a tool, or a piece of sporting equipment. Most people on here can't get on board with that.. fine, whatever, you do you.

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by Envitro

No I don't like guns.... I don't like any inanimate object.

The groan I let out reading this post scared the #### out of my cat.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Envitro

I didn't' say that they were comparable, just that they're high compared to the rest of the world. The U.S. is its own category, without a doubt.

The rest of the countries I mentioned, including Canada both have similarly high civilian gun ownership rates to one another, especially compared to most of the rest of the world.

No I don't like guns.... I don't like any inanimate object.
It's a tool, or a piece of sporting equipment. Most people on here can't get on board with that.. fine, whatever, you do you.

I bought $900 hockey skates once and I LOVE those inanimate objects. Oddly enough, this is the first time since I bought them in 2012 that I've ever talked about or wrote about them.



But yeah, you don't like guns.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Envitro

I didn't' say that they were comparable, just that they're high compared to the rest of the world. The U.S. is its own category, without a doubt.

Then mentioning them wasn't necessary to begin with, no? What point was it supposed to serve if they aren't comparable? "Oh wait, Finland, Switzerland, Canada (to name a few), all countries with very high per capita civilian gun ownership rates, don't have the same rate of "mass shootings" as the U.S." -- what is this supposed to be if not a comparison of those three countries to the US?

Originally Posted by Envitro

The rest of the countries I mentioned, including Canada both have similarly high civilian gun ownership rates to one another, especially compared to most of the rest of the world.

To one another, but not the US, which is literally the point of the thread. It's in the title, even. Again, similarly high rates to each other, but dwarfed by the US.

The US has 3.5x the gun ownership rates of Canada. No other nation on earth has a ratio of firearms to citizens that exceeds 1 except the United States. The next two countries on the list are the Falkland Islands and Yemen, the only other two on the list where that ratio exceeds .5 guns to citizens. The rate in the US is more than double that of Yemen.

This is a uniquely US problem for a reason.

I mean, you know very well the context that was implied with your post. CroFlames called you out for being obtuse and somehow you're doubling down.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by btimbit

This is why I've largely avoided this thread.

There's no question the US needs stricter gun control, but people get too sidetracked comparing countries, or talking about what we need to do in Canada despite not having the same cultural issues.

It's perfectly reasonable to think the US needs much stricter gun control, while also thinking our own has gotten to be a bit much. But this thread is about the US, how anyone can go 'this is fine' is just insane

I actually agree with you on part of this, I think our current Government is just grandstanding with its new rules, that said I have no problem with an absolute ban on all guns either even if I think its not neccersary, I see guns outside of a few specific occupations, as being utterly pointless in a society and if they were just all banned thats fine with me, and I say this as someone who's enjoyed hunting deer

[afc wimbledon]

Guns are for almost all a hobby, if 700 people died in Canada a year due to horrific remote control car accidents we would ban that crap without a second thought

[FlamesAddiction]

Iraq under Saddam Hussein would probably be a good comparison. A highly armed civilian population with a relatively low crime rate and a great example of how having an armed civilian population ensures that freedom cannot be taken away.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

You cannot defend yourself with more force than is necessary.

If you put up your dukes, I don't get to shoot you. I don't get to stab you.

Even if you have a gun, and I have a gun, if I have a reasonable means to escape, I don't get to shoot you.

Originally Posted by Envitro

Reasonable force is always the caveat that the courts use to determine whether it was justifiable or not.

LIke you said, if someone attacking you has a knife and is coming at you, you are allowed to use reasonable force to stop them, up to and including the use of firearm.

It's not reasonable to say that "they have a knife, they're in my house, and about to attack me, so I had to defend myself with a knife".

Also, "reasonable means to escape" is not a legal argument. By Canadian law you are not expected or required to escape from your home. Check into it.

Credit where credit is due. This is the US Mass Shooting Thread. Depending on the state you can shoot anyone on your property if you feel threatened whatsoever.

However, here in Canada Kruse Law Firm has a good summary here:

https://www.kruselaw.ca/library/usin...-kruse-law.cfm

The Criminal Code, section 35, defines our rights with respect to defending our property. If we believe, on reasonable grounds, that someone is unlawfully entering our property or about to damage it, we can take reasonable actions to prevent the person from entering our property, prevent them from stealing or damaging our property, and to physically remove them from our property. This means grabbing an intruder or burglar and knocking them down would be a reasonable defence, but shooting them would be deemed unreasonable. In Canada, the use of firearms for defence of self or property is generally prohibited by law.

[PepsiFree]

How many other tools/pieces of sporting equipment were originally invented to kill other people and are still primarily used for that function today?

[Galakanokis]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Then mentioning them wasn't necessary to begin with, no? What point was it supposed to serve if they aren't comparable? "Oh wait, Finland, Switzerland, Canada (to name a few), all countries with very high per capita civilian gun ownership rates, don't have the same rate of "mass shootings" as the U.S." -- what is this supposed to be if not a comparison of those three countries to the US?

To one another, but not the US, which is literally the point of the thread. It's in the title, even. Again, similarly high rates to each other, but dwarfed by the US.

The US has 3.5x the gun ownership rates of Canada. No other nation on earth has a ratio of firearms to citizens that exceeds 1 except the United States. The next two countries on the list are the Falkland Islands and Yemen, the only other two on the list where that ratio exceeds .5 guns to citizens. The rate in the US is more than double that of Yemen.

This is a uniquely US problem for a reason.

I mean, you know very well the context that was implied with your post. CroFlames called you out for being obtuse and somehow you're doubling down.

And correct me if I am wrong but I believe Finland and Switzerland have mandatory military service for all males and have very strict rules and training around guns. Very different culture around gun ownership and the purpose behind them.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

How many other tools/pieces of sporting equipment were originally invented to kill other people and are still primarily used for that function today?

The Jeep?

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Galakanokis

And correct me if I am wrong but I believe Finland and Switzerland have mandatory military service for all males and have very strict rules and training around guns. Very different culture around gun ownership and the purpose behind them.

Yup, and very few ways of getting out of mandatory service, too.

Case in point, the Finnish (Muzzle) Flash:


Hischier served in Switzerland during the off-season:

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Yup, and very few ways of getting out of mandatory service, too.

Case in point, the Finnish (Muzzle) Flash:


Hischier served in Switzerland during the off-season:

When you have a historically aggressive Russia and Germany on your doorstep, this is a good strategy.