The Ongoing Coyotes Sale Thread

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You're actually playing into his point evman.

The Coyotes failures are many, and the market is only one of them. Ownership problems, poor management, poor location of the arena (not that Bouw will admit to that one), consistent loser on the ice are all important reasons for the problems. Yes, attendance hasn't risen despite being a better team the past two years, but I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to pledge loyalty to a team that may not be there next year.

Theoretically, a stable owner would mitigate or eliminate most of those problems, leaving it back to the original, and largest, issue of getting people out to the damned arena. I'm not sure that will happen, but one can't fault Bouw for being hopeful.

Then again, I remember how Edmonton fans were so convinced that Katz would instantly turn the Oilers into a winner too. A new owner is not necessarily a better one. But for Phoenix, time would tell on that point.

As they can't draw a TV audiance either I suspect it wouldn't matter where the arena was, it would still fail.

[Jordan!]

I'm foaming at the mouth of a Coyotes/Jets rivalry! bring it on Sandstorm vs Whiteout

[automaton 3]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

That's pretty big from Dreger.. he doesn't dick around. Dare I feel some hope?

You might get your wish...IMO not because the viability of the Phoenix market or the ownership situation but because the league already has the Thrashers lined up to move to Winnipeg and they don't currently have any other viable alternatives for the 'Yotes.

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

I'm foaming at the mouth of a Coyotes/Jets rivalry! bring it on Sandstorm vs Whiteout

That's seriously what they called the free t-shirt giveaway?

[Muta]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

Muta.. I don't care if the team went 164-0 the past two years.. to expect casual fans to jump on this team emotionally with all the abuse and uncertainty is not realistic. Why is this so hard to understand? You know what sucks? watching a team win 5 games in a row and setting undefeated at home records and not being able to fully savor it because the team may leave next season..

This isn't normal circumstances.. it's probably the most any sports fan could ever go through with a team.

To judge a fanbase or a market over the past two years is really unfair.

Who's judging? Phoenix has been consistently near the bottom of the NHL attendance records since the year 2000. How do you explain that? Lack of playoffs?

As a franchise, their 2nd best performance record, aside from this year, was in 2001-02. They made the playoffs, and they still averaged out to have the 2nd worst attendance in the league.

By contrast, Calgary didn't make the playoffs that year, and they still averaged 3,000 more fans than Phoenix that year. Hell, they had been out of the playoffs six seasons running at that point.

I just don't see Phoenix regaining a competitive fanbase, even if they have a new owner and have succeeded on the ice before. History has proven so.

[Scrollbar]

whats awesome is when phoenix and winnipeg meet in the playoffs we wont have to give away the shirts

atlanta makes more sense. move an eastern team out west and let the wings finally go to the east.

[Jordan!]

Originally Posted by Scrollbar

atlanta makes more sense. more an eastern team out west and let the wings finally go to the east.

A win/win for Coyotes fans!

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

This isn't normal circumstances.. it's probably the most any sports fan could ever go through with a team.

To judge a fanbase or a market over the past two years is really unfair.

Frankly, if I can be totally honest, it looks like just another excuse in a long line of excuses to me. Phoenix doesn't make enough money... "Oh, it'll just take little time for hockey to catch on you'll see!" They're around for a while and still don't make enough money "oh it's because the arena isn't any good! get a new arena and you'll see!" They get a new arena and they still don't make money... "Oh, it's because the team is always losing get a team that wins some and you'll see!"... team starts winning and they still don't make enough money... "Oh it's because of ownership turmoil, get a stable ownership group and you'll see!"

At this point I just don't think enough people in the Metro Phoenix area support or will shortly support hockey enough to make it a viable enterprise. Really I think the NHL would be better off moving the team now and really work on building the game of hockey in Arizona at the grassroots (Youth League, High School, College, minor pro) level before trying to put a team there again.

[Wolven]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Frankly, if I can be totally honest, it looks like just another excuse in a long line of excuses to me. Phoenix doesn't make enough money... "Oh, it'll just take little time for hockey to catch on you'll see!" They're around for a while and still don't make enough money "oh it's because the arena isn't any good! get a new arena and you'll see!" They get a new arena and they still don't make money... "Oh, it's because the team is always losing get a team that wins some and you'll see!"... team starts winning and they still don't make enough money... "Oh it's because of ownership turmoil, get a stable ownership group and you'll see!"

At this point I just don't think enough people in the Metro Phoenix area support or will shortly support hockey enough to make it a viable enterprise. Really I think the NHL would be better off moving the team now and really work on building the game of hockey in Arizona at the grassroots (Youth League, High School, College, minor pro) level before trying to put a team there again.

Go grassroots or go home!

That isn't a very catchy saying... still, I think that is the message that Bettman needs to take if the NHL pulls out of Phoenix. A lot of money was lost on the brute force approach of trying to force that franchise into a market that simply didn't care. If Bettman really wants to set up the NHL to be able to return to Phoenix in the future then investing the money in the grass roots concept should help prevent the annual $30M in losses the Coyotes were seeing on a regular basis.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Bouw N Arrow

A win/win for Coyotes fans!

So it is a win for you and the one other fan they have?

[Northendzone]

for the last two years the team has received millions in free advertising - surely everyone in arizona knows that the nhl is in the phoenix area.......

[tjinaz]

So it is a win for you and the one other fan they have?

As the other fan I fully approve of Bouw's idea. That and my wife is a huge Wings fan (we have a hockey room in the house and her signed Wings crap completely demolishes my poor Coyotes stuff.) it would prevent us from putting the divorce lawyer on speed dial during the playoffs.

[nik-]

But what about attendance in Phoenix when Detroit only comes once every two years instead of twice a year!?

/snark

[Sidney Crosby's Hat]

Coyotes will stay, Thrashers to Winnipeg. Give it about 15 more days to work itself out.

[PegCityFlamesFan]

To judge a fanbase or a market over the past two years is really unfair.

Past 15 years don't show much hope. I really do hope you keep your team for another 2 years, when Hulsizer flips it for a sweet deal.

[tjinaz]

Or when the Winnipeg Thrashers become the Kansas City Thrashers in 5?

As I recall there was a team in Manitoba for 15 years before it was declared a failure... that made the Coyotes attendance really look good. Now if i could just remember the name.....

[DownhillGoat]

Originally Posted by tjinaz

As I recall there was a team in Manitoba for 15 years before it was declared a failure... that made the Coyotes attendance really look good. Now if i could just remember the name.....

Nothing could have possibly changed in 15 years. The Canadian dollar, city population and growth rate, population in surrounding regions, salary structure, head office locations... Nope. Nothing changed.

[moon]

Originally Posted by kunkstyle

Nothing could have possibly changed in 15 years. The Canadian dollar, city population and growth rate, population in surrounding regions, salary structure, head office locations... Nope. Nothing changed.

Things have changed with the NHL as well. If modern Winnipeg was entering the league in 1995 these changes would likely be enough but even with the population growth, supposed growth in wealth and head offices Winnipeg is still far behind every other city in these areas.

The one thing that has changed that will make a positive difference is the Canadian dollar but with the tiny arena it will be a lot tougher for Winnipeg to take advantage of that compared to other Canadian teams.

[Muta]

I think it's truly amusing when people make the argument that nothing has changed in Winnipeg in the last 15 years; but then say that in Phoenix, after 15 years, things will finally be looking up with a new owner.

Really? So Phoenix is allowed to evolve and Winnipeg isn't? LOL.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Muta

I think it's truly amusing when people make the argument that nothing has changed in Winnipeg in the last 15 years; but then say that in Phoenix, after 15 years, things will finally be looking up with a new owner.

Really? So Phoenix is allowed to evolve and Winnipeg isn't? LOL.

Who is saying both those things?

I don't think that Phoenix is a good market but Phoenix being bad doesn't make Winnipeg a good market.