The Blue Jays: 2009 Season Thread

[GirlySports]

Obviously some deadline trades will put teams a little higher.

The Blue Jays can't even contend by the end of June to be in a position to add more salary.

Texas and Tampa are still in contention.
Minnesota and Florida are a bit on the outside.. maybe too far.

But at least these smaller teams are in the mix and have above .500 records.

For Toronto to be 55-64 and just roll over against the Red Sox the last two nights is a disgrace.

[Jason14h]

For Toronto to be 55-64 and just roll over against the Red Sox the last two nights is a disgrace.

It has become very evident they have given up. It really is a bad atmosphere to have all these young players in

[moon]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

St.L is now in the top 12 because of Holliday.

When I heard the stat I beleive SF was tied with Colorado, and with their deadline trades sit 12th in payroll now.

So 7 of the 8 teams in playoffs are in the top 12 in payrolls. SF who is 2 games out would make it 8 for 8.

I don't think it is that surprising that the best teams in the league are adding payroll later in the year since they are the ones who can actually benefit from it.

I am sure there are a lot of other teams that are lower on the current list that have just as much ability to add payroll if they were in the same situation.

Oh course some teams in the top 12 aren't in the playoffs! Only 8 teams make it!

Lets look at the teams with high payroll not in the playoffs: Only the Cubs and Astros are really "Failures." The Mets have been decimated by injuries,and every other team is in the top half on the league. (Even the cubs are only 6 out and over .500)

Well considering that two of the top 5 teams are out of the play-offs and often out of the play-offs, I don't think it is as easy as just saying only 8 teams make it so of course some of the top 12 are going to be out.

It shows that just having money doesn't mean that you win in baseball.

The Mets have a lot more trouble than injuries. This isn't the first time they will miss the play-offs with a huge payroll.

The point is that of the 8 playoffs teams, all are in the top 18. 7 of the 8 are in the top 12. The bottom 12 teams in payroll are all out of the playoffs.

My guess is that if you look at hockey the numbers wouldn't be that different. Teams like Phoenxi, Atlanta, Florida, LA didn't have huge payrolls.

The economic disparity in baseball is an issue but it isn't close to as big an issue as people make it out to be. Really it is only stopping the bottom 20% of teams from being competitive and the Marlins and Rays have shown that even they can compete if you run your team well.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by moon

I don't think it is that surprising that the best teams in the league are adding payroll later in the year since they are the ones who can actually benefit from it.

I am sure there are a lot of other teams that are lower on the current list that have just as much ability to add payroll if they were in the same situation.



Well considering that two of the top 5 teams are out of the play-offs and often out of the play-offs, I don't think it is as easy as just saying only 8 teams make it so of course some of the top 12 are going to be out.

It shows that just having money doesn't mean that you win in baseball.

The Mets have a lot more trouble than injuries. This isn't the first time they will miss the play-offs with a huge payroll.



My guess is that if you look at hockey the numbers wouldn't be that different. Teams like Phoenxi, Atlanta, Florida, LA didn't have huge payrolls.

The economic disparity in baseball is an issue but it isn't close to as big an issue as people make it out to be. Really it is only stopping the bottom 20% of teams from being competitive and the Marlins and Rays have shown that even they can compete if you run your team well.

The difference is having a continually competitive team and having freak seasons, and yes, the difference is a big issue.

[Flickered Flame]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

For Toronto to be 55-64 and just roll over against the Red Sox the last two nights is a disgrace.

9 games under .500 is awful but when you consider at the end of May they were what 15 games over .500, it is absolutely unacceptable.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by nik-

The difference is having a continually competitive team and having freak seasons, and yes, the difference is a big issue.

I like sports having big guys a little guys though.

If the big guys meet in the final it's good. And if once in awhile a little guy goes up against a big guy in the final that's fun too.

People say baseball is unfair and should be balanced and then when Philly and Tampa play in the World Series, the TV ratings go into the tank.

[ShaolinFlame]

Originally Posted by Flickered Flame

9 games under .500 is awful but when you consider at the end of May they were what 15 games over .500, it is absolutely unacceptable.

The first half of their season was incredibly easy, not to mention the loss of SPs.

[moon]

Originally Posted by nik-

The difference is having a continually competitive team and having freak seasons, and yes, the difference is a big issue.

But there are teams that are in the middle of the pack that are able to have continually competitive teams.

I agree that there are some teams that are out of it at the start of the season but the majority of teams have the money to be continually competitive.

Too many teams/fans use economics as an excuse when for the most part it is incompetent management that is the cause of their issues.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I like sports having big guys a little guys though.

If the big guys meet in the final it's good. And if once in awhile a little guy goes up against a big guy in the final that's fun too.

People say baseball is unfair and should be balanced and then when Philly and Tampa play in the World Series, the TV ratings go into the tank.

I don't really care what the TV ratings are - I'm looking at this purely from the perspective of the team I follow - the Jays. And from the point of view, competing in the AL east with the Sox and Yankees they are clearly at a huge disadvantage.

The playing field is never going to be equal in pro sports - but it needs to be a heckuva lot closer than it is in MLB.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by moon

But there are teams that are in the middle of the pack that are able to have continually competitive teams.

I agree that there are some teams that are out of it at the start of the season but the majority of teams have the money to be continually competitive.

Too many teams/fans use economics as an excuse when for the most part it is incompetent management that is the cause of their issues.

It's simply not a black/white issue. Incompetent management is a huge part but there's also no question that there is a connection between organization success and their budgets.

[Da_Chief]

MLB is such a lost league.

-No cap
-No rookie maximum
-Crap teams have no fans

Doesn't help having a guy like JP running a team, who is a total knob.

They should make two levels.

The one for Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Dodgers, Cubs, Angels, Phillies, Braves, White Sox, Mariners.

The second for rest of the teams. The 2nd tier can be farm teams to the first 10.

How the heck do you get Yankees at over 200 million and Marlins less than 40 million? A-Steroid makes nearly as much as the whole Marlins roster. Thats absurd.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

MLB is such a lost league.

-No cap
-No rookie maximum
-Crap teams have no fans

Doesn't help having a guy like JP running a team, who is a total knob.

They should make two levels.

The one for Yankees, Red Sox, Mets, Dodgers, Cubs, Angels, Phillies, Braves, White Sox, Mariners.

The second for rest of the teams. The 2nd tier can be farm teams to the first 10.

How the heck do you get Yankees at over 200 million and Marlins less than 40 million? A-Steroid makes nearly as much as the whole Marlins roster. Thats absurd.

The Marlins beat the Yankees in the World Series

I don't think it's as bad as people say. Baseball seems to produce different winners and finalists every year. Alot of seasons we've seen the Blue Jays play the Red Sox and Yankees quite evenly. But then they lose to Tampa Bay and Baltimore.

[Sylvanfan]

Last year the Blue Jays were ahead of the Yankees until the final 10 games of the season. In 2006 they Jays finished ahead of the Red Sox. Problem was that there were 2-3 other teams in the American League who were also better than Toronto that year, and they neccessarily weren't spending that much more than the Blue Jays. There are years where even the big spending teams have off seasons, problem is the Jays haven't been able to win more than 86 games since like 2000, and 90 is a minimum for a playoff team.

It's nice that Aaron Hill and Adam Lind look to have developed into good MLB hitters, and Travis Snider looks like another one. Problem is there are 6 other spots in the lineup where they haven't really developed Sweet fata all. Even if you add Wells to the mix, how acceptable is it for a lower budget team to have 3-4 guys in their lineup whom they've developed into Major League hitters?

Edit...I really didn't know just how bad this Wells contract was until I read this.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/200...e-jays_05.html


7 years/$126M (2008-14)

• signed extension with Toronto 12/06
• $25.5M signing bonus (paid in 3 $8.5M installments, March 1 2008-10)
• 08:$0.5M, 09:$1.5M, 10:$12.5M, 11:$23M, 12:$21M, 13:$21M, 14:$21M
  
• full no-trade clause
• Wells may opt out of contract after 2011
• award bonuses: $0.25M for MVP, $0.2M for World Series MVP, $0.15M for LCS MVP, $0.1M for receiving most All-Star votes in league
  
• Wells to donate $143,000 annually to Blue Jays charity

So after the Blue Jays pay Wells his final 8.5 million dollar bonus on March 1st next year....they still owe him 98.5 million over the next 4 years. Why is a contract that backloaded? Mind boggling.

[cheevers]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Edit...I really didn't know just how bad this Wells contract was until I read this.

http://mlbcontracts.blogspot.com/200...e-jays_05.html



7 years/$126M (2008-14)

• signed extension with Toronto 12/06
• $25.5M signing bonus (paid in 3 $8.5M installments, March 1 2008-10)
• 08:$0.5M, 09:$1.5M, 10:$12.5M, 11:$23M, 12:$21M, 13:$21M, 14:$21M
  
• full no-trade clause
• Wells may opt out of contract after 2011
• award bonuses: $0.25M for MVP, $0.2M for World Series MVP, $0.15M for LCS MVP, $0.1M for receiving most All-Star votes in league
  
• Wells to donate $143,000 annually to Blue Jays charity

So after the Blue Jays pay Wells his final 8.5 million dollar bonus on March 1st next year....they still owe him 98.5 million over the next 4 years. Why is a contract that backloaded? Mind boggling.

Your going to be really pissed when he wins both the MVP and world series MVP and they have to pay out $450,000.

[Sylvanfan]

Ha ha, thats the one part of the contract that I'm sure the Jays would be more than willing to increase in hopes of saving face.

[Machiavelli]

Halladay has pitched like poo his last few outings.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I like sports having big guys a little guys though.

If the big guys meet in the final it's good. And if once in awhile a little guy goes up against a big guy in the final that's fun too.

People say baseball is unfair and should be balanced and then when Philly and Tampa play in the World Series, the TV ratings go into the tank.

So yeah, I guess there would be historic lows in TV ratings if there was something akin to a NE/GB final in the NFL, right? That is what you're saying?

The NFL has proven that you don't need to be a huge market in order to generate a following if your team is competitive. Just because Dallas and NY don't make it to the finals each year doesn't make the NFL less of a league. Hell, the NFL doesn't even have a team in one of the largest markets in the country (LA).

Parody on the whole is better for everyone.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Halladay has pitched like poo his last few outings.

I think the Phillies aren't feeling the least bit sorry that they traded for Cliff Lee instead.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

So yeah, I guess there would be historic lows in TV ratings if there was something akin to a NE/GB final in the NFL, right? That is what you're saying?

The NFL has proven that you don't need to be a huge market in order to generate a following if your team is competitive. Just because Dallas and NY don't make it to the finals each year doesn't make the NFL less of a league. Hell, the NFL doesn't even have a team in one of the largest markets in the country (LA).

Parody on the whole is better for everyone.

Seems to be the same teams in contention in the NFL too. There are some really really bad teams.
I think ratings would fall if you had something like a Jaguars/Lions Superbowl.

NFL's got CBA issues coming up. Owners aren't happy with the salary cap, or more specifically the salary floor.

But anyways, back on topic.. Blue Jays suck and money isn't the reason they suck!

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

I think the Phillies aren't feeling the least bit sorry that they traded for Cliff Lee instead.

Hard to say, Halliday might have been pitching lights out in Philly. Maybe all this uncertainty and the Jays not being in the race (again) is affecting him.