Israel declares war on Hamas

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Wow okay that's one giant leap you made there trying to discredit me. I mentioned myself that I have no way of verifying that recording. Other places mention it now as well as something the IDF released. I mentioned it in the original post, so that I don't mislead anyone, and everyone can make up their own mind.

You mentioned that the audio of two people speaking was very plausible.
Based on nothing whatsoever.

[carmenshoes]

If we have to suspend relations with Israel so be it, we should suspend them. We do not support genocide; sure what Hamas did was terrible and that lays in the hands of Hamas. If Israel attacks the civilians in Gaza it's nothing but terrorisms.

The point is to keep our facts straight. Israel asks for peace, but with weapons in their hands. The choice they are making is evil.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Why will it never happen? You already state that Arabs live in Israel with "rights".

What would be so bad if those rights were equal rights, and not "fine, I guess you can hang out here, but remember this is a Jewish state, check out the flag if you forget" rights?

Equal right for Hamas? That's a new one

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Saqe

Equal right for Hamas? That's a new one

I'm talking about equal rights for the Arabs living within Israel, excluding Gaza and the West Bank. Let's get there first, and then see how to filter through the rest of the mess in those areas.

[activeStick]

It sounds like water has run out in Gaza.

Water has run out at U.N. shelters across Gaza as thousands packed into the courtyard of the besieged territory’s largest hospital as a refuge of last resort from a looming Israeli ground offensive and overwhelmed doctors struggled to care for patients they fear will die once generators run out of fuel.

U.S. national security adviser Jake Sullivan told CNN on Sunday that Israeli officials told him they had turned the water back on in southern Gaza. But the spokesman for Israel’s energy and water ministry, Adir Dahan, said it was only flowing at a single location in southern Gaza. Aid workers in Gaza said they had not yet seen evidence the water was back and a Gaza government spokesperson said it was not flowing.

Relief groups called for the protection of the over 2 million civilians in Gaza urging an emergency corridor be established for the transfer of humanitarian aid. There was no indication that such a corridor will be opened anytime soon, said Ahmed al-Mandhari, the regional director of the World Health Organization.

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/10/...fensive-looms/

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I'm talking about equal rights for the Arabs living within Israel, excluding Gaza and the West Bank. Let's get there first, and then see how to filter through the rest of the mess in those areas.

Arab citizens of Israel have full equal rights. In fact the most successful and educated group in Israel are the Christmas Arabs, who are the least likely to live a constructive religious lifestyle of the three major religions.

[skcli]

The world is due for a World War 3 to reshuffle the deck. Sad but true.



I hope not though.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by blankall

Arab citizens of Israel have full equal rights. In fact the most successful and educated group in Israel are the Christmas Arabs, who are the least likely to live a constructive religious lifestyle of the three major religions.

On paper. Ish.

From the Or Commission:

The Arab citizens of Israel live in a reality in which they experience discrimination as Arabs. This inequality has been documented in a large number of professional surveys and studies, has been confirmed in court judgments and government resolutions, and has also found expression in reports by the state comptroller and in other official documents. Although the Jewish majority's awareness of this discrimination is often quite low, it plays a central role in the sensibilities and attitudes of Arab citizens. This discrimination is widely accepted, both within the Arab sector and outside it, and by official assessments, as a chief cause of agitation.

The existence of the JNF and coupled abuse of the Absentee Property Law has meant that a bunch of land is reserved for Jewish use only. That is something which just isn't legal in most developed countries.

Immigration laws are also completely unequal for Jews and non-Jews.

The parallels between this and Norther Ireland are actually pretty striking. Same deal there, a police force that selectively enforced laws on one side of the conflict, and housing and hiring practices that created exclusion, despite supposed equal rights.

Is Israel better for minority rights than anywhere else in the region? By an absolute long shot. They are the shining star of open society in the Middle East. That doesn't mean they should stop short, however. I think things can just get better if they progress down this path.

[Saqe]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

I'm talking about equal rights for the Arabs living within Israel, excluding Gaza and the West Bank. Let's get there first, and then see how to filter through the rest of the mess in those areas.

I mean, what we are seeing is iron age stupidity and religious fundamentalism on display. Hamas doesn't care about equal rights, territory or resources. Sole reason for their existence is to eradicate the Jews, they say it all the time. It's a massive security risk. And it's not like these terrorists wave their hand and let people know who they are.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by blankall

Arab citizens of Israel have full equal rights. In fact the most successful and educated group in Israel are the Christmas Arabs, who are the least likely to live a constructive religious lifestyle of the three major religions.

Nope:

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/2...nd-persecution

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Saqe

I mean, what we are seeing is iron age stupidity and religious fundamentalism on display. Hamas doesn't care about equal rights, territory or resources. Sole reason for their existence is to eradicate the Jews, they say it all the time. It's a massive security risk. And it's not like these terrorists wave their hand and let people know who they are.

Absolutely, and knocking down the wall and welcoming in the residents of Gaza would be totally naive.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

Why will it never happen? You already state that Arabs live in Israel with "rights".

What would be so bad if those rights were equal rights, and not "fine, I guess you can hang out here, but remember this is a Jewish state, check out the flag if you forget" rights?

As far as the law goes the jews and arabs in Israel have equal rights and obligations. The holidays, days off, and some of the culinary decisions the government observes follow Jewdaism. There are 2.1M Arab citizens in Israel. They have political parties, which were in the Lapid-Bennett government recently. They serve in the army, and get all the civil rights a Jew gets. They are free to follow Islam.

Many of the Jews that identify as Hiloni(least religious/non believers) in Israel, complain about some of the same problems as not having public transportation on Saturdays, not being able to eat pork/seafood, having no bread on Passover etc. Those issues are magnified now.

Both groups have complaints towards Sephardic Jews, because they get paid by the government to study the Torah, and are exempt from the army. The reason this group gets all the benefits is because their political parties usually decide if the left or the right can assemble a government.

Originally Posted by Bagor

You mentioned that the audio of two people speaking was very plausible.
Based on nothing whatsoever.

No, it's not based on nothing. It's based on a pattern that has been happening in the region for years. I've seen videos of how Hamas terrorists grab onto children in Gaza while being chased by the Israelis. Those videos were taken when it was much more difficult to fake them.

Even if you discount all the videos. My dad, and numerous friends served in the IDF. I know exactly what are the procedures, and what do they have to deal with on daily basis. That's what I'm basing my opinion that it is plausible, not certain.

Originally Posted by activeStick

It sounds like water has run out in Gaza.

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2023/10/...fensive-looms/

There were reports in the Israeli news that they turned the water back on today.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Nope:

https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/2...nd-persecution

You are confusing the 2.1 Million Arabs(the 48 Arabs) that live in Israel and the Muslims that were encouraged by the Arab nations to remain as refugees in the Palestinians.

That's not the same group of people. Either that or you prefer to group all arabs/muslims in the territory of Israel into one group.

Originally Posted by wikipedia

Palestinians that have remained within Israel's 1948 borders have been colloquially known as "48-Arabs".[6] In Israel itself, Arab citizens are commonly referred to as Israeli-Arabs or simply as Arabs;[7][8] international media often uses the term Arab-Israeli to distinguish Arab citizens of Israel from the Palestinian Arabs residing in the Palestinian territories.[9]

...

According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab-Israeli population in 2023 was 2.1 million representing 21 percent of the country's population.[1] The majority of these citizens identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and as Israeli by citizenship.

...

60 percent of Israel's Arab citizens have a positive view of the Israeli state;[18] the Druze as well as Bedouins in the Negev and the Galilee tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel.

...

Palestinian Arabs sat in the state's first parliamentary assembly in 1949. In 2011, 13 of the 120 members of the Israeli Parliament are Arab citizens, most representing Arab political parties, and one of Israel's Supreme Court judges is a Palestinian Arab.[200]

[activeStick]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

There were reports in the Israeli news that they turned the water back on today.

Yeah, the article has the same quote you might be referring to:

"U.S. national security adviser Jake Sullivan told CNN on Sunday that Israeli officials told him they had turned the water back on in southern Gaza. But the spokesman for Israel’s energy and water ministry, Adir Dahan, said it was only flowing at a single location in southern Gaza. Aid workers in Gaza said they had not yet seen evidence the water was back and a Gaza government spokesperson said it was not flowing."

[WCW Nitro]

Colombia may suspend relations with Israel.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.tel...1015-0015.html

"If Colombia needs to suspend its foreign relations with Israel, it will do so, because the South American country does not support genocides

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

Wouldn't critical thought be the ability to occasionally agree with someone like Yoho even if you disagree with them 95% of the time?

Critical thought is being able to assess the information presented and dismiss your emotions and possible biases. Yoho doesn't display any semblance of critical thought in any of their posts. They focus on the same tired disinformation agents who have been proven wrong time-after-time. So when they bring the exact same sources of information, who lie non-stop to forward ideological causes, I tend to view those sources as what they are. The same lying sources who are trying to forward an agenda.

Vs automatically dismissing anything based on who posts it and automatically agreeing with others based on those posters being your tribe.

I have no tribe. I routinely disagree with everyone and I don't give a #### about what tribe you're from. Therein lies the problem in this thread. It is tribal. You have the self-proclaimed Jews who are incensed over the attack, but failing to consider the response and the equity of outcomes. They lead the charge and they are the most vocal. They are also the most emotional. That is understandable based on the severity of the events. I can feel their pain and I understand their emotional response. 9/11 did the same to me and it took several weeks for the fire to subside and critical thought to be restored. We're seeing some of that here.

Sounds like you're calling out the wrong people for lack of critical thought.

If you're not calling out disinformation agents you're leaving yourself open to the con job. I can't believe that anyone would think that sources that prior to this event was universally considered disinformation would n ow consider information from those sources as trustworthy. It's classic confirmation bias in action.

To this issue, there's no right side here. Both are right and wrong. Yes, Hamas needs to be destroyed. But Israel is not innocent and continues to get into the gutter in dealing with this existential threat. The ones caught in the middle are the Palestinians who live in an apartheid state. Israel had a lot of sympathy and goodwill on their side following the Hamas attack but their actions are burning that goodwill quickly. They could have separated the intentions of the Palestinians and those of Tehran-backed Hamas and reacted accordingly. Sometimes the greatest response to an action like this is pause and humility. We'll never know because of the immediate and severe reaction from Israel.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by activeStick

Yeah, the article has the same quote you might be referring to:

"U.S. national security adviser Jake Sullivan told CNN on Sunday that Israeli officials told him they had turned the water back on in southern Gaza. But the spokesman for Israel’s energy and water ministry, Adir Dahan, said it was only flowing at a single location in southern Gaza. Aid workers in Gaza said they had not yet seen evidence the water was back and a Gaza government spokesperson said it was not flowing."

I guess we'll find out soon enough. Also the Rafiah crossing(Gaza-Egypt border) will be open tomorrow starting at 9am local time(midnight mountain time). It will be open for foreign citizens to leave, and for Humanitarian aid to get in.

[transplant99]

Just so people are aware....this thing works both ways, even if Israel has a much larger/capable military.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1713740069456990478

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

The ones caught in the middle are the Palestinians who live in an apartheid state.

The Gaza strip was self governed by the Hamas since the Itnatkut(one sided disengagement) in 2005. They weren't living inside the Israeli state.

The second Intifada, which began in 2000, was marked by intense violent protests, suicide bombings, riots and attacks. Then Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon argued that defending a population of approximately 9,000 settlers came at a high cost. Clashes in Gaza between the Israeli forces and Hamas and even Yasser Arafat's PLO made the future of the peace process with Palestinians look bleak and the defence of Jews in the area was turning into a costly affair for Israel.

The unilateral disengagement process began in August of 2005 and by September, around 9,000 Jews living in 25 settlements were evicted and the Israeli troops completely withdrew from the Gaza Strip to the Green Line -- a 1949 Armistice Line drawing boundaries between Israel and its Arab neighbours. These settlements had stood for decades until 2005 and their removal involved bulldozing, forceful eviction by Israeli troops. Although the settlers received compensation from the Israeli government for rehabilitation, the process was protracted and tedious.

Israel's withdrawal from Gaza was portrayed as a step towards a peace process, but in 2006, Hamas won a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council election, marking a dramatic shift in Palestinian politics and the emergence of the group as an alternative to Fatah, a group that now governs in the West Bank. The aftermath of the disengagement plan was starkly different from what was envisioned.

Hamas failed to maintain a unity government with Fatah, which resulted in violent clashes or referred to by some experts as a brief civil war in Gaza.

Hamas took complete control of the military and political establishment in Gaza and Fatah was left to govern in the West Bank, it was followed by terror attacks against Israel by Hamas. Between 2008 and 2023, Israel and Hamas engaged in recurring clashes, resulting in thousands of casualties over the years.

Source

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Just so people are aware....this thing works both ways, even if Israel has a much larger/capable military.

https://twitter.com/user/status/1713740069456990478

You should see if you can find his source. For fun.