Let's Talk about the Calgary Police Service

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

It is pretty simple.

You employer tells you not to wear something you don't.

Honestly I am surprised this is such an issue.

It’s not really that simple, though. 30 years ago that exact argument was used to dismiss calls to allow Sikh police officers to wear turbans on the job.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It’s not really that simple, though. 30 years ago that exact argument was used to dismiss calls to allow Sikh police officers to wear turbans on the job.

Turbans are the same as a white supremacist patch?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by peter12

Turbans are the same as a white supremacist patch?

Symbols mean different things to different people. Establishing what symbols public employees should be allowed to wear on the job is not straightforward, and can involve legal rulings up to and including charter challenges.

Or do you agree with the statement that employees should have to wear (or not wear) whatever their employer mandates?

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It’s not really that simple, though. 30 years ago that exact argument was used to dismiss calls to allow Sikh police officers to wear turbans on the job.

One is protected by Human Rights legislation; the other isnt.

It is that simple

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by timun

The use of the flag didn't gain much currency until it was flown after a certain cop in Minneapolis nonchalantly murdered a certain black man in the street. It's pretty strongly associated with injustices carried out by police forces all over North America...

I read this and decided to look at Google Search trends to see spikes in search interest for "thin blue line" and what was going on roughly around the same time.

United States since 2004: https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...%20blue%20line
Spikes:
December 2014 - Man shot and killed two NYPD officers before turning the gun on himself. Largest spike in search interest since December 2009. This incident resulted in the formation of the "Blue Lives Matter" movement.
September 2015 - 100 LAPD officers take part in a "Blue Lives Matter" rally in Hollywood.
July 2016 - There were two highly publicized shootings of police officers in the United States; Dallas (5 K.I.A., 9 injured) and Baton Rouge (3 K.I.A., 3 injured). This was the largest such spike from 2004 to now.
May/June 2020 - The Brionna Taylor verdict and George Floyd incident happened late May and so didn't have much time to reflect May's numbers but it does show an uptick before June's massive spike, likely due to the killing of Ahmaud Arbery in early May.
September 2020 - Ricardo Munoz incident, police deployed tear gas on the subsequent protests that formed in light of the incident.
Full list of police incidents regarding racial unrest in the US since 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._racial_unrest


Canada since 2004: https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...%20blue%20line
Spikes:
April-May 2020 - The 2020 Nova Scotia attacks.
June 2020 - Almost certainly due to the same incidents that spiked the search interest in the US; Ahmaud Arbery, Brionna Taylor, and George Floyd.
October 2020 - Not sure if there was anything specific here that pertained to Canadian ongoings, I would attribute to US events except the US shows waning search interest here.
February 2022 - Police inaction and support of the Trucker Convoy leading to increased criticism of police organizations in Canada is the most likely culprit here.

So it actually seems that the earliest spikes of public interest regarding "thin blue line" align more with instances of police officers being killed in the line of duty or similar (US: NYC, Los Angeles, Dallas, Baton Rouge; Canada: Nova Scotia) before turning into a symbol of supporting police in the face of accusations of brutality and so on.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Cappy

One is protected by Human Rights legislation; the other isnt.

It is that simple

It took the courts some time to rule on that.

And do you think employers should be able to ban all non-religious symbols? If the police or Costco banned employees from displaying rainbow symbols, would you dismiss critics out of hand as idiots who don’t understand that they have to wear what the boss says?

I’m not particularly sympathetic to the police on this one, but I don’t think they’re motivated by racism or corruption. It’s a more nuanced issue than a lot of people are making it out to be.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

I read this and decided to look at Google Search trends to see spikes in search interest for "thin blue line" and what was going on roughly around the same time.

United States since 2004: https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...%20blue%20line
Spikes:
December 2014 - Man shot and killed two NYPD officers before turning the gun on himself. Largest spike in search interest since December 2009. This incident resulted in the formation of the "Blue Lives Matter" movement.
September 2015 - 100 LAPD officers take part in a "Blue Lives Matter" rally in Hollywood.
July 2016 - There were two highly publicized shootings of police officers in the United States; Dallas (5 K.I.A., 9 injured) and Baton Rouge (3 K.I.A., 3 injured). This was the largest such spike from 2004 to now.
May/June 2020 - The Brionna Taylor verdict and George Floyd incident happened late May and so didn't have much time to reflect May's numbers but it does show an uptick before June's massive spike, likely due to the killing of Ahmaud Arbery in early May.
September 2020 - Ricardo Munoz incident, police deployed tear gas on the subsequent protests that formed in light of the incident.
Full list of police incidents regarding racial unrest in the US since 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._racial_unrest


Canada since 2004: https://trends.google.com/trends/exp...%20blue%20line
Spikes:
April-May 2020 - The 2020 Nova Scotia attacks.
June 2020 - Almost certainly due to the same incidents that spiked the search interest in the US; Ahmaud Arbery, Brionna Taylor, and George Floyd.
October 2020 - Not sure if there was anything specific here that pertained to Canadian ongoings, I would attribute to US events except the US shows waning search interest here.
February 2022 - Police inaction and support of the Trucker Convoy leading to increased criticism of police organizations in Canada is the most likely culprit here.

So it actually seems that the earliest spikes of public interest regarding "thin blue line" align more with instances of police officers being killed in the line of duty or similar (US: NYC, Los Angeles, Dallas, Baton Rouge; Canada: Nova Scotia) before turning into a symbol of supporting police in the face of accusations of brutality and so on.

Does not fit narrative of tinum, sliver, peter12, etc. Please delete.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Captain Otto

Does not fit narrative of tinum, sliver, peter12, etc. Please delete.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

Go back and read, and click on the links that support our position(s), and realize we have no agenda or vested interest in this. There's no narrative we're following along with. We are pissed off at the immaturity and hostility of our police force for rational reasons.

Then go read your posts. Maybe rattling around in your head somewhere are cogent ideas and you just aren't articulate enough to express them, but you've written nothing of any value or produced any arguments in support of whatever your position is. Does it even go beyond bootlicking and being contrarian? I honestly can't tell.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Go back and read, and click on the links that support our position(s), and realize we have no agenda or vested interest in this. There's no narrative we're following along with. We are pissed off at the immaturity and hostility of our police force for rational reasons.



Then go read your posts. Maybe rattling around in your head somewhere are cogent ideas and you just aren't articulate enough to express them, but you've written nothing of any value or produced any arguments in support of whatever your position is. Does it even go beyond bootlicking and being contrarian? I honestly can't tell.

Rabble, rabble, insult, insult, rabble, rabble.

There's no point of presenting an argument in a thread like this when it's very clear it will have zero bearing on what you post. What happens instead is a series of insults because I don't agree with you.

You presented a bunch of garbage to support the conclusion you wanted to arrive at.

How about this, put me on ignore and address the last few posts that contradict your beliefs. You won't. You'd rather insult me because I've been too busy (and quite frankly, I've got better things to do than hangout in a "shop" and judge others) to post links other than the original. I'll wear that as I did admonish another poster for that. I certainly should have been more prepared, so I apologize for that.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[81MC]

Originally Posted by timun

Well, no, that's not what it means, and that's clear. You can't just announce something and have it be fact.

Tom Nolan, associate professor of sociology at Emmanuel College who previously worked with the Boston Police Department, said the "Thin Blue Line" fosters an "us against them" mentality, in which "the police firmly believed that they are, in fact, the metaphorical and literal 'Thin Blue Line' between order and anarchy, between the good guys and the bad guys."
or
Above the blue line represents the "good" spoken in Reagan's quote, while below the line represents the "evil." The law enforcement brothers and sisters in the United States make Ronald Reagan's quote a reality, and the Thin Blue Line represents their constant bravery. They risk their lives daily upon the streets of America. The Thin Blue Line is a small token to remind us that the presence of law enforcement is to bring forth peace and diminish hostility and violence.
or
The most reliable account of the origin of the thin blue line is the story of the thin red line. A red-coated Scottish regiment of the British Army during the Crimean War heroically stood, outnumbered, against repeated Russian attacks. This effort of the 1854 battle, most notably associated with Alfred, Lord Tennyson’s poem “Charge of the Light Brigade” was described by the British press as the thin red line. The idea of a line of brave defenders standing between peace and chaos was borrowed by law enforcement whose typically blue uniforms were testimony to true blue loyalty and steadfastness.
or
whatever the #### someone wants to claim the symbolism to be rooted in I guess.

The use of the flag didn't gain much currency until it was flown after a certain cop in Minneapolis nonchalantly murdered a certain black man in the street. It's pretty strongly associated with injustices carried out by police forces all over North America...

Or...that's not the case (as already demonstrated) and is what some people may have perceived because they were not involved until such event?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Sliver

We are pissed off at the immaturity and hostility of our police force for rational reasons.

This is what I meant when I said people can’t bring themselves to imagine any motivation for the behaviour of people they disagree with except the worst one.

This is a good example of an issue that’s worth steelmaning. It’s a good exercise in building up those rational muscles.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Symbols mean different things to different people. Establishing what symbols public employees should be allowed to wear on the job is not straightforward, and can involve legal rulings up to and including charter challenges.

Or do you agree with the statement that employees should have to wear (or not wear) whatever their employer mandates?

You're really going to argue this strawman into the ground, hey?

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

There are uniform standards. I'm not going to weigh in on whether the thin blue line patch should be allowed or not but, not allowing them to wear one could be a charter violation (speech). Whether it's reasonable is obviously up for debate. Nevertheless, uniform policies have been challenged before when the violated the right of Sikhs to practice their religion while serving in the RCMP.



https://www.cbc.ca/2017/canadathesto...-won-1.4110271

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It’s not really that simple, though. 30 years ago that exact argument was used to dismiss calls to allow Sikh police officers to wear turbans on the job.

Hey guys, you're only supposed to lick the boot, not deep throat it.

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Captain Otto

Does not fit narrative of tinum, sliver, peter12, etc. Please delete.

This sort of post really doesn't do you nor your argument any favours.

[Captain Otto]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

This sort of post really doesn't do you nor your argument any favours.

You are right and I apologize.

It was just very clear the intelligent discourse wasn't on the menu today.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

[FormerPresJamesTaylor]

Originally Posted by Captain Otto

It was just very clear the intelligent discourse wasn't on the menu today.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

This sort of post really doesn't do you nor your argument any favours.

This kind of criticism rings hollow when you've got this #### being posted above and below you.

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

Hey guys, you're only supposed to lick the boot, not deep throat it.

Originally Posted by FormerPresJamesTaylor

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

This kind of criticism rings hollow when you've got this #### being posted above and below you.

Not really, I thought it was rather uncharacteristic of Captain Otto, so I pointed it out.

[timun]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

I read this and decided to look at Google Search trends to see spikes in search interest for "thin blue line" and what was going on roughly around the same time.

<links clipped for brevity>

So it actually seems that the earliest spikes of public interest regarding "thin blue line" align more with instances of police officers being killed in the line of duty or similar (US: NYC, Los Angeles, Dallas, Baton Rouge; Canada: Nova Scotia) before turning into a symbol of supporting police in the face of accusations of brutality and so on.

In a post a couple weeks back I already said that the original meaning of "the thin blue line" was "what stands between good and evil", between criminals and the rest of law-abiding society. I'm not arguing that's not what it originally meant; I don't see anybody else arguing that it wasn't the original meaning. Wearing the flag emblem didn't become a thing until relatively recently.

Originally Posted by 81MC

Tom Nolan, associate professor of sociology at Emmanuel College who previously worked with the Boston Police Department, said the "Thin Blue Line" fosters an "us against them" mentality, in which "the police firmly believed that they are, in fact, the metaphorical and literal 'Thin Blue Line' between order and anarchy, between the good guys and the bad guys."
or
Above the blue line represents the "good" spoken in Reagan's quote, while below the line represents the "evil." The law enforcement brothers and sisters in the United States make Ronald Reagan's quote a reality, and the Thin Blue Line represents their constant bravery. They risk their lives daily upon the streets of America. The Thin Blue Line is a small token to remind us that the presence of law enforcement is to bring forth peace and diminish hostility and violence.
or
The most reliable account of the origin of the thin blue line is the story of the thin red line. A red-coated Scottish regiment of the British Army during the Crimean War heroically stood, outnumbered, against repeated Russian attacks. This effort of the 1854 battle, most notably associated with Alfred, Lord Tennyson’s poem “Charge of the Light Brigade” was described by the British press as the thin red line. The idea of a line of brave defenders standing between peace and chaos was borrowed by law enforcement whose typically blue uniforms were testimony to true blue loyalty and steadfastness.

Again: no one is arguing the origin of "thin blue line". But what you and Captain Otto are repeatedly, utterly refusing to believe or acknowledge is that it has other more recent meanings, and those meanings are not good. You're walking around with proverbial blinders on pretending that it isn't used for nefarious means by reprehensible people, and badgering the rest of us for "proof" of the "fact" that they're doing so. The rest of us are dumbstruck by your recalcitrance. Open your eyes; do you not see the right-wing turds out there who wrap themselves up in the "thin blue line" flag to deflect criticism of their bigotry? Do you really not see the way some crooked cops have protected other crooked cops because they're "part of the family" of LEOs, and those crooked cops are proud to fly that "thin blue line" flag under the guise it's a show of support and camaraderie?

If you actually read the rest of the article you grabbed that first quote from Tom Nolan from, you'd maybe have a clue as to what the hell the rest of us are talking about:

https://www.insider.com/how-thin-blu...-police-2021-2

"I think when I was on the job, I might've actually espoused this belief myself because when you're immersed deeply in the subculture of policing, which most police officers are, this is how you see the world," Nolan told Insider.

Nolan, who has nearly 30 years of experience in law enforcement, said the controversy that follows the flag is rooted in the "construct" built by police officers "that there is this kind of schism between the good guys and the bad guys."

"The police feel threatened because their role as being the good guys and their supporters of being the good guys is being questioned," he said.

[...]

In 1988, film director Errol Morris released a scathing documentary about an innocent man who was arrested and convicted of murdering a police officer. The man was executed by electric chair "with the help of suppressed evidence, perjured testimony, and an emotional closing argument for the prosecution," according to "Lawtalk."

Ironically, Morris titled the film, "The Thin Blue Line."

"[The] final argument was one I had never heard before the thin blue line of police that separated the public from anarchy," the trial judge said in the film, according to the book. "And I have to concede that there my eyes kind of welled up when I heard that."

[...]

The flag, however, has been adopted by the conservative activists to show solidarity with the police, and it has also been picked up by far-right extremist groups as well. The flag made an appearance at the deadly "Unite the Right" rally in Charlottesville, Virginia, which gathered white supremacist groups, including the alt-right, neo-Nazis, and the Ku Klux Klan.

[...]

Melina Abdullah, a co-founder of the Los Angeles chapter of Black Lives Matter, told The Marshall Project last June that the flag "feels akin to a Confederate flag."


Standing up for the use of the "thin blue line" flag really does feel very much the same as the hillbilly racists who proudly fly the Confederate battle flag prattling on about "heritage, not hate!"

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by TorqueDog

Not really, I thought it was rather uncharacteristic of Captain Otto, so I pointed it out.

While a characteristic post by a serial offender is ignored.

One of the curious things about this forum is people who are routinely belligerent #######s rarely get called out. I guess it’s because the #######s are savvy enough to deploy their drive-bys in the service of popular opinions.