Israel declares war on Hamas

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

No, those were the only things I’ve linked to, so if you can point to which of them is “Pro Palestinian crap” and full of misinformation, since you said that’s what I’ve posted, that’d be great, thanks.

If you re-read my exact post. I said "you guys", as in the pro Palestinian supporters in this thread. I haven't individually looked through any of the things you linked.

As I said, everything that is Pro Palestinian gets a pass from you. Now kindly #### off.

[transplant99]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1713656541952262637

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Or maybe posters are starting to see thru the usual mouthpieces.

Nope. We're seeing usually levelheaded individuals now start to post stuff from some of the biggest disinformation agents around and claim them as credible. That tells me that this has become nothing more than an emotional issue and one where critical thought has been suspended. When right-wing hate mongering is accepted as credible journalism we're past the point of having a discussion based on facts. Really quite sad to see.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Nope. We're seeing usually levelheaded individuals now start to post stuff from some of the biggest disinformation agents around and claim them as credible. That tells me that this has become nothing more than an emotional issue and one where critical thought has been suspended. When right-wing hate mongering is accepted as credible journalism we're past the point of having a discussion based on facts. Really quite sad to see.

I think it has more to do with the downfall of Twitter as a reliable source. It’s been relied upon too long.

[Manhattanboy]

Where is the outrage? A week of whitewashing in the books.

https://globalnews.ca/news/10024968/...-death-israel/

The last video of Canadian Shir Georgy is of her huddled with her friends on the floor scared to death in a shelter at the Supernova Music Festival. Hamas gunmen hunted them down like animals and slaughtered them all.

Her funeral was yesterday.

My heart is irrevocably broken.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

If you re-read my exact post. I said "you guys", as in the pro Palestinian supporters in this thread. I haven't individually looked through any of the things you linked.

As I said, everything that is Pro Palestinian gets a pass from you. Now kindly #### off.

No thanks.

You were responding to me, so I’m assuming I’m one of the “you guys” that posts links that are “Pro Palestinian crap” so you surely have one example, right?

I would just like to know what I’ve posted that fits the “Ben Shapiro” mold, since that was your excuse for brushing off my criticism of him. And on top of sharing sources known for spreading misinformation, it wouldn’t make much sense to make up accusations about other posters, would it?

What is “Pro Palestinian” anyway? Aren’t you “pro” Palestinian? You said you had sympathy for the Palestinian people, which would make you pro-Palestinian, wouldn’t it?

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Nope. We're seeing usually levelheaded individuals now start to post stuff from some of the biggest disinformation agents around and claim them as credible. That tells me that this has become nothing more than an emotional issue and one where critical thought has been suspended. When right-wing hate mongering is accepted as credible journalism we're past the point of having a discussion based on facts. Really quite sad to see.

It would be very interesting to see how you and similar others would react to this if it was your family slaughtered in Israel. I’m sure you would take the moral
High ground and want to solve this by peaceful negotiation.

Most of you far left are so passively aggressive I highly doubt it.

One way or another, and for one side or another I think this time it ends as the status quo of standard operating procedures in the Middle East.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Two days ago Eyad Al-Bozom, a Hamas spokesman was holding a press conference in the Shifa Hospital. I only have Hebrew sources that mention Shifa as the location, but many places mention what he said.

Yediot Aharonot article about it(hebrew). It mentions it in the first paragraph.

Yeah. That doesn't cut it.
They're going to bomb a hospital based on the word of some random Israeli journalist?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

I also have audio from a telegram channel of a conversation between an Israeli Intelligence officer and an informant. The intelligence officer asks the informant about locations where the Hamas is preventing civilian evacuation. To which the informant tells him that right now the Hamas confiscates car keys, and IDs/passports to prevent people from leaving.

Again that could be misinformation, but it seems very plausible.

Just curious.
What is it about this 'supposed audio' that makes you think it is very plausible?
Given how easily it would be to fake this audio.
What convinces you it's legit?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

https://www.britannica.com/science/confirmation-bias

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

No thanks.

You were responding to me, so I’m assuming I’m one of the “you guys” that posts links that are “Pro Palestinian crap” so you surely have one example, right?

I would just like to know what I’ve posted that fits the “Ben Shapiro” mold, since that was your excuse for brushing off my criticism of him. And on top of sharing sources known for spreading misinformation, it wouldn’t make much sense to make up accusations about other posters, would it?

What is “Pro Palestinian” anyway? Aren’t you “pro” Palestinian? You said you had sympathy for the Palestinian people, which would make you pro-Palestinian, wouldn’t it?

Every time you responded to me, you weren't even trying to address the content of the posts. You only respond to the points that are convenient and ignore the rest. You're essentially doing what Hamas has managed to do throughout this conflict, and simply deflect the conversation, so good job on your debate skills.

You were the first to respond to my post with Ben Shapiro, you dismissed it outright. Without even bothering to see or contemplate the information for yourself. Notice that in the original post I mentioned who's it by, and I said that it corresponds to things I learned, and in some cases experienced... because I lived in Israel for 12 years. You demanded that I would go through the trouble of finding other similar videos. Where I would spend my time, and you would dismiss them again for one convenient argument or another. I mentioned this and said that you don't try to dismiss any Pro Palestinian narrative. Which is the case.

What do I consider as Pro Palestinian - Opinions that either don't acknowledge what the Hamas does and did, or excuse it by saying it's essentially everything is Israel's fault.

---

We all know who started this war. We all know that there's no good way to deal with the Hamas that's using the population of Gaza as a shield. That's using hospitals and schools as military infrastructure. We got so used to it, that we don't even notice the amount of war crimes being committed by one side: Firing rockets into civilians, shooting civilians en masse, taking hostages, taking kids as hostages, placing military installations inside an urbanized area and using its civilians as meat shields.

In this thread I gave multiple examples of how Israel respects its peace treaties. I've shown that the Israel was trying to achieve peace multiple times. I've explained the reasoning behind the disengagement from Gaza, and the blockade. None of those posts got as much as a comment. But as soon as I mention Ben Shapiro, that means everything that I said can't be taken seriously.. okay, then don't. I don't need to spend the effort it takes to try and convince you. Luckily your opinion won't change the outcome.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Just curious.
What is it about this 'supposed audio' that makes you think it is very plausible?
Given how easily it would be to fake this audio.
What convinces you it's legit?

It's not the audio that convinces me that it is legit. It's actions from previous conflicts. Hamas has always used the population as a shield. It never went for an open conflict. Therefore it needs people either as decoys or as shields in the upcoming ground offensive.

The audio can be fake. I think I mentioned it. However anything we hear or watch can be fake, where's the line? Is it not fake if a news agency reports it? If a government shares it?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

What do I consider as Pro Palestinian - Opinions that either don't acknowledge what the Hamas does and did, or excuse it by saying it's essentially everything is Israel's fault.

That doesn’t really make sense as a description for “Pro Palestinian,” but even if it did, it’s not an accurate description of my position or anything I’ve posted. I’d wager you couldn’t even find one person in this thread that hasn’t acknowledged what Hamas does/did or have excused everything as Israel’s fault. People have offered the perspective of Palestinian civilians, the UN, Amnesty International, etc, which you seem to believe is wrong, but that’s your issue.

Comparing anyone in this thread to Hamas, given what Hamas has done and what they believe, is at worst absurd and insulting to anyone here, and at best makes light of a terrorist organization. You can’t have it both ways.

Nobodies opinion is going to change the outcome, but you could listen to opinions different than your own instead of doing things like comparing people you disagree with to Hamas because they call you out for spreading misinformation.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

You know you're on the wrong side of an issue when you agree with Yoho.

Yoho and Trudeau’s Liberal government are on the same page on this issue. So that’s kinda funny.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

It's not the audio that convinces me that it is legit. It's actions from previous conflicts. Hamas has always used the population as a shield. It never went for an open conflict. Therefore it needs people either as decoys or as shields in the upcoming ground offensive.

The audio can be fake. I think I mentioned it. However anything we hear or watch can be fake, where's the line? Is it not fake if a news agency reports it? If a government shares it?

So basically you're not willing to verify any claims that you read/hear online choosing instead to consider it as "very plausible" based on what you've heard about previous conflicts.

So if Israel bombs a hospital you'll be ok with it and be able to justify it in your head as long as there is some sort of "very plausible" claim that Hamas were there?

The line is an individual one where you have to critically think for yourself what might be real and what might be false and how you choose to decide.

Again.

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

https://www.britannica.com/science/confirmation-bias

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

You know you're on the wrong side of an issue when you agree with Yoho.

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Nope. We're seeing usually levelheaded individuals now start to post stuff from some of the biggest disinformation agents around and claim them as credible. That tells me that this has become nothing more than an emotional issue and one where critical thought has been suspended. When right-wing hate mongering is accepted as credible journalism we're past the point of having a discussion based on facts. Really quite sad to see.

Wouldn't critical thought be the ability to occasionally agree with someone like Yoho even if you disagree with them 95% of the time?

Vs automatically dismissing anything based on who posts it and automatically agreeing with others based on those posters being your tribe.

Sounds like you're calling out the wrong people for lack of critical thought.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Yoho and Trudeau’s Liberal government are on the same page on this issue. So that’s kind funny.

And on the other side of the fence, you have people agreeing with regimes like North Korea and Iran on the issue.

The whole situation is so messed up though. It's not really a left or right thing, it's a wedge issue.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bagor

So basically you're not willing to verify any claims that you read/hear online choosing instead to consider it as "very plausible" based on what you've heard about previous conflicts.

So if Israel bombs a hospital you'll be ok with it and be able to justify it in your head as long as there is some sort of "very plausible" claim that Hamas were there?

The line is an individual one where you have to critically think for yourself what might be real and what might be false and how you choose to decide.

Again.

Wow okay that's one giant leap you made there trying to discredit me. I mentioned myself that I have no way of verifying that recording. Other places mention it now as well as something the IDF released. I mentioned it in the original post, so that I don't mislead anyone, and everyone can make up their own mind.

The Hamas spokesperson news conference happened in Shifa. Newspapers/media don't usually mention the location, as much as the content. The Israeli websites did mention the actual location.

Why do people in Israel know there's a bunker under Shifa:

The Israelis are so sure about the location of the Hamas bunker, however, not because they are trying to score propaganda points, or because it has been repeatedly mentioned in passing by Western reporters—but because they built it. Back in 1983, when Israel still ruled Gaza, they built a secure underground operating room and tunnel network beneath Shifa hospital—which is one among several reasons why Israeli security sources are so sure that there is a main Hamas command bunker in or around the large cement basement beneath the area of Building 2 of the Hospital, which reporters are obviously prohibited from entering.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Never will happen, living in another reality. Palestinians would ensure that the Jews would be gone. Unreal some of the cognitive dissonance and lack of understanding here. Only state in the middle east where minorities have rights is in Israel. Every Arab state kicked out their Jewish community in the 20th century. No point in trying to explain this to some but the Arab Islamic world will nevet allow Jews to live freely in a society they control. Nice idea but never will happen in reality.

Why will it never happen? You already state that Arabs live in Israel with "rights".

What would be so bad if those rights were equal rights, and not "fine, I guess you can hang out here, but remember this is a Jewish state, check out the flag if you forget" rights?

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Thank you for your consent. As for the Arabs living in the Jewish state, if and when a Palestinian state is created let’s see how many of them call the movers.

Oh come on now, you know what it meant. I'll clean it up regardless:

Israel can continue to exist as it is. No two state solution is actually going to stop the problems, IMO.

You seriously think that if Gaza became a country, Arabs would flood out of Israel in favour for an "Arab state"?

Newsflash, they can already take their pick of "Arab states" in the area, but choose to hang out in Israel, and for good reason. They aren't going to pack up and leave.

That's why treating Israel like every other developed first world country out there.. and having equal rights for all citizens, and dropping the ethno-religious state BS, is the right thing to do.

Again, are the US problems fixed if African Americans get their own state? Or the Afrikaners in South Africa? I'd really like to hear a retort to this one. It's pretty obvious creating an ethnocentric state is and always has been a terrible idea. So change the flag, ditch the special rights for Jews, and call this thing a proper country that can continue to set a shining example for the region.

The international support would be immense, and the reactions to terrorist attacks would no longer be up for the unfortunate debate the seem to be today.