Once again Israel shows it doesn't screw around

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Arya Stark

Sent. I asked what you wanted to know and you wanted me to tell you every single story. It is clear you are baiting me and trolling so I will no longer reply to you. If you want to ask a specific question about the subject you initially replied to then go for it, but you are just trolling and baiting now. Cheers.

PM sent, again

Sorry I know this is OT, but I must defend the trolling comment. I was not trolling.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Do you believe Israel targets civilians (genuine, not Hamas fighters in civilian clothes) in soft targets (public buildings, office buildings etc)?

Hey Flash, you probably missed my question as it likely got lost with the other posts but I was wondering your opinion on the above.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Hey Flash, you probably missed my question as it likely got lost with the other posts but I was wondering your opinion on the above.

Difficult question. Does Israel target civilian homes and infrastructure? I think so. Do they do it because it is civilian infrastructure or has civilians in it? Likely not. Do some in command take liberties in this capacity, almost positively. Does Israeli intelligence do the same, almost positively.

Based on the evidence, Israel as a state doesn't seem to care that civilian houses and infrastructure are being destroyed. Housing civilians, UN personnel or journalists does not appear to be an adequate shield in the occupied territories.

[Shawnski]

Originally Posted by blankall

The US gives the Palestinians about 500 million in aid a year. They receive more aid per person than any other population on the planet.

And no IRon Dome would not work against targeted strikes from above.

I think you need to provide your support for that.

As far as I understand from digging around, Israeli population is almost 8 million but gets $3 billion in aid, so about $375 per capita (which is light years ahead of Afghanistan, which apparently comes in second for countries at about ~$78 per capita.

When you indicate Palestinians get about $500 mill in aid, with their population of 4 million, that yields ~$125 per capita. Now I am not sure if this $500 million you speak of is in addition to the Israeli aid or not, but bottom line is that those numbers do not support your position.

Israel gets by far, the most per capita aid on the planet from the US.

Edit, I found a good link. Foreign aid requests for fiscal year 2015.

Israel, $3.1 billion
Gaza and West Bank, $441 million.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Amazing that their support among Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank increased, isn't it? And that Hamas has a more prominent role than the PA in the current talks in Cairo.

I detest Hamas; and I detest that Israel has figured out just what role it would like Hamas to play.

Did it increase? How does one measure support for someone that literally gives you no other option but to support them?

Hamas rules Gaza with terror and keeps the Palestinian people living in fear.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Azure

Did it increase? How does one measure support for someone that literally gives you no other option but to support them?

Hamas rules Gaza with terror and keeps the Palestinian people living in fear.

I am sure it's the democratically elected government that has the Palestinian people in fear, not the extremely aggressive, international law flaunting militaristic nation that has been occupying their territory for decades and who is currently bombarding them with indescriminate weapons like flechette ordinance.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Azure

Your driveby posts are as usual, great.

As is your extremely simplistic viewpoint on an extremely complex situation.

Either way, Hamas is an internationally recognized terrorist organization that openly(proven in the last page, again) uses civilian targets as a way to gain public approval. But nice try in trying to paint them in a nice way. Concerning actually that you would even want too. Perhaps you have a problem accepting the fact that they are at best, still a terrorist organization hellbent on destroying a country and killing a bunch of innocent people, many of them fellow Arabs? Referring to them as simply a 'democratically elected government' while painting Israel as evil nation destroying the lives of the Palestinian people shows your true bias in regards to the whole situation. Sad that you would stoop so low, as I always figured you had a unique and interesting take on most situations with the ability to cut through the BS. Apparently not.

Exhausting ad hominem aside, there is serious truth in his statement that you need to be considering if you're going to make a balanced argument.

Hamas was indeed elected by the people, and maintained a very high approval rating for a number of years. While the approval rating was dipping, this conflict could like spark another increase.

The fact of the matter is, whether you, Flash, or I really believe it to be true, what he said is exactly representative of the feelings of the Palestinian people about Israel:

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

the extremely aggressive, international law flaunting militaristic nation that has been occupying their territory for decades and who is currently bombarding them with indescriminate weapons like flechette ordinance.

Whether you or I think Israel is evil or the one destroying the lives of the Palestinian people is irrelevant on every level, because THEY believe it to be true. That is why they fight, that is why they elect and support those who want Israel destroyed.

To them, Israel is indeed evil. It would be unwise to sit back and tell them how they should feel about it. Israel and it's supporters don't take kindly to be told to just "deal with" the rocket attacks, why would you think the situation is different on the other side?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Exhausting ad hominem aside, there is serious truth in his statement that you need to be considering if you're going to make a balanced argument.

I have already agreed that Israel is aggressive with their military policy. It seems to come and go with the times. I disagree with the settlements and agree outright with Flash when he said that as the dominant force in the region Israel should take the first step. I will not however try to simplify the situation by painting Hamas as the democratically elected government fighting for the good of the Palestinian people and Israel is the evil force trying to ruin the lives of the Palestinian people. The situation is a LOT more complex than that.

Whether you or I think Israel is evil or the one destroying the lives of the Palestinian people is irrelevant on every level, because THEY believe it to be true. That is why they fight, that is why they elect and support those who want Israel destroyed.

And this is the problem people have. Hamas has been democratically elected, and therefore they speak for the Palestinian people. The Hamas charter outright calls for the eradication of Israel. Should we therefore believe that the people of Palestine want Israel destroyed? And if so, why should Israel do anything else than declare outright war on them?

Of course, the situation isn't as simple, and even among the ruling party in Gaza there is disagreement. So lets not try to paint everything in a black and white picture, which is exactly what Flash was doing.

To them, Israel is indeed evil. It would be unwise to sit back and tell them how they should feel about it. Israel and it's supporters don't take kindly to be told to just "deal with" the rocket attacks, why would you think the situation is different on the other side?

I know this isn't addressed to me, but the reason people think Israel should deal with it is because there isn't as much 'destruction' in Israel from the rocket attacks. Therefore there is a notion that Israel can somehow manage to live with daily sirens and rocket attacks even if most are harmless. The rise of the Iron Dome system also plays a part in such beliefs.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by Azure

Did it increase? How does one measure support for someone that literally gives you no other option but to support them?

Hamas rules Gaza with terror and keeps the Palestinian people living in fear.

Yes, it has very much increased, and support for Fatah's peace seeking stance has vanished, leading that party to take a more militant stance in order to stay politically relevant.

From the NY Times:

Just three months ago, Hamas, financially strapped and diplomatically isolated, agreed to a reconciliation deal with President Mahmoud Abbas of the Palestinian Authority and his secularist Fatah faction after a bitter, seven-year division, on minimal terms that analysts said reflected the Islamic group’s weakness.

Now Hamas — which refuses to recognize Israel’s right to exist and is considered a terrorist organization by much of the West — is being hailed in the West Bank as the champion of armed resistance, while Mr. Abbas, who leads the alternative camp advocating a negotiated peace deal with Israel, is being excoriated for having failed to achieve a Palestinian state after 20 years of intermittent and fruitless Israeli-Palestinian talks.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Mike F

Yes, it has very much increased, and support for Fatah's peace seeking stance has vanished, leading that party to take a more militant stance in order to stay politically relevant.

From the NY Times:

Gee, who could have predicted that.

It's almost like...Israel does not want peace.

[Chill Cosby]

Originally Posted by Azure

Of course, the situation isn't as simple, and even among the ruling party in Gaza there is disagreement. So lets not try to paint everything in a black and white picture, which is exactly what Flash was doing.



I know this isn't addressed to me, but the reason people think Israel should deal with it is because there isn't as much 'destruction' in Israel from the rocket attacks. Therefore there is a notion that Israel can somehow manage to live with daily sirens and rocket attacks even if most are harmless. The rise of the Iron Dome system also plays a part in such beliefs.

Maybe it comes down to interpretation, but from what I've seen from his posts, I took Flash's post to be closer to the line of suggestive sarcasm, in a way. He was pretty clearly outlining the opposite, equally valid view that contrasted what you said, as I doubt very much the Palestinian people would agree with your assertions on the situation over Flash's. If he was painting things as black and white, you were doing the very same, so it's a moot point.

I'm aware of why people say Israel should deal with it. My point was that asking the Palestinian people to recognise Hamas as evil and to dispel of them in favour of Israel is roughly as ridiculous as asking Israeli's to be OK with having rockets launched at them on a daily basis.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Gee, who could have predicted that.

It's almost like...Israel does not want peace.

Did you watch the Charlie Rose video I linked to above?

A very respected middle east watcher, Bruce Riedel, says that very thing (about Benjamin Netanyahu at least, citing a former head of Shin Bet). He goes on to state that Netanyahu is stirring up the fear of Iran to distract from the fact that he's doing nothing to advance peace with the Palestinians.

(Edit: here @ 38:15 in)

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Mike F

Did you watch the Charlie Rose video I linked to above?

A very respected middle east watcher, Bruce Riedel, says that very thing (about Benjamin Netanyahu at least, citing a former head of Shin Bet). He goes on to state that Netanyahu is stirring up the fear of Iran to distract from the fact that he's doing nothing to advance peace with the Palestinians.

(Edit: here @ 38:15 in)

Yeah, that was an interesting video, thanks for posting it.

Captaincrunch also identified what the obvious course of action should have been on the first page.

Unfortunately it is becoming increasingly difficult, almost impossible, to realistically believe the Israelis want peace, despite the extreme effort to build the opposite narrative.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by Mike F

Yes, it has very much increased, and support for Fatah's peace seeking stance has vanished, leading that party to take a more militant stance in order to stay politically relevant.

From the NY Times:

So... 3 months ago, Hamas had no money and no friends and was being forced into a deal with their political enemies.

Then somehow a war starts with the Jews and voila... they are the much loved champion of armed resistance and I would assume the money is just pouring in to support the cause.

Someone more cynical than I might think that this was the plan all along? Everyone knows that if your popularity is waning the one sure way to get a boost in support is to start a war.... Just ask George Bush.

[AltaGuy]

Originally Posted by Rerun

So... 3 months ago, Hamas had no money and no friends and was being forced into a deal with their political enemies.

Then somehow a war starts with the Jews and voila... they are the much loved champion of armed resistance and I would assume the money is just pouring in to support the cause.

Someone more cynical than I might think that this was the plan all along? Everyone knows that if your popularity is waning the one sure way to get a boost in support is to start a war.... Just ask George Bush.

Well, yes and no. A weakened Hamas was willing to take a subservient role to Fatah in a power-sharing government. But then a lot of facts on the ground changed quickly after the abduction of the three Israelis and mass arrests that followed.

[Rerun]

Originally Posted by AltaGuy

Well, yes and no. A weakened Hamas was willing to take a subservient role to Fatah in a power-sharing government. But then a lot of facts on the ground changed quickly after the abduction of the three Israelis and mass arrests that followed.

Are you sure? Or did someone in Hamas come up with an alternate plan to save their government thus ensuring they wouldn't have to share power (in a subservient role, as you said) with Fatah?

It doesn't take genius to know how Israel will react after being attacked.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by Azure

And this is the problem people have. Hamas has been democratically elected, and therefore they speak for the Palestinian people. The Hamas charter outright calls for the eradication of Israel. Should we therefore believe that the people of Palestine want Israel destroyed? And if so, why should Israel do anything else than declare outright war on them?

Just for accuracy's sake, Hamas entered into a unity government in June of this year. It was led by the moderate PA primer minister. The unity government did recognize Israel.

Obviously the current situation has put this moderate effort on the back burner. We can only guess and speculate as to who that helps and how.

[Mike F]

Originally Posted by Rerun

So... 3 months ago, Hamas had no money and no friends and was being forced into a deal with their political enemies.

Then somehow a war starts with the Jews and voila... they are the much loved champion of armed resistance and I would assume the money is just pouring in to support the cause.

Someone more cynical than I might think that this was the plan all along? Everyone knows that if your popularity is waning the one sure way to get a boost in support is to start a war.... Just ask George Bush.

Sure, sounds reasonable.

And fortunately for Hamas, when events on the ground gave them cause to escalate, they had an administration in Israel chomping at the bit to let the one side of the Palestinian cause openly against peace determine the course of events instead of dealing with the side of the Palestinian cause that wants peace.

The Israeli administration wants conflict. Hamas wants conflict. They're both happier than pigs in mud right now.

The people suffering are the civilians in Gaza and those on both sides that want to find a way to end the conflict.

There. Now, you are your side lay the blame on Hamas and the Israeli gov't equally, and we can all move on.

[FlameOn]

Originally Posted by Chill Cosby

Further:

Which is where the issue comes in. Israel has fired on centers without confirmed weapons, centers not serving a military role primarily, and centers which were not being used to launch attacks.

It also doesn't address laws that state if you are aware of a high number of civilians casualties, you are to avoid them.

Regardless, Israel walked themselves into a public relations nightmare thanks to the human rights violations stemming from the latest offensive, and once again seems to have accomplished very little in terms of dealing with terrorism in Gaza. Worth it?

And there have been many many cases where there are confirmed weapons centers in previously civilian areas as well, I just posted video of two and we have confirmation of at least one school and the hospital as well. Intelligence in such a chaotic area is going to be shoddy at best. If there are consistent launches in the area, at which point should you be able to pull the trigger? Does the site have to be active with eyes on target? Active within the last 10-20 minutes? It's really hard to say. Sometimes the intel is spot on, other times its bad. Do you never pull the trigger and send in ground troops to clear these places one by one? Or continue letting them fire missiles to their hearts content. Israelis have been far too indiscriminate sure, but are they always wrong in firing at a known weapons site? probably not.

Regardless of whether it was worth it, right or wrong, one thing I've found in this whole discussion thread is there are segments of the world obsessed with blaming Israel for everything, either due to mild moral idiocy or thinly veiled bigotry. Replace Palestinian and Israeli in these news articles with Canadian vs. Russians and I'm sure a lot of people will calm down a lot.

Assad kills >180k of his own citizens, no one cares anymore. ISIS has killed thousands if not more in the past week (they have reached Lebanon) with over three hundred executed in the back of the head into a shallow ditch SS style, as well several hundred beheaded w/ their heads mounted on spikes for god knows what reason, we don't care. Every time you put the word Israel in the conversation it seems all proportionality is lost.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by FlameOn

Assad kills >180k of his own citizens, no one cares anymore. ISIS has killed thousands if not more in the past week (they have reached Lebanon) with over three hundred executed in the back of the head into a shallow ditch SS style, as well several hundred beheaded w/ their heads mounted on spikes for god knows what reason, we don't care. Every time you put the word Israel in the conversation it seems all proportionality is lost.

Ahh the classic "there's other bad stuff going on" defense. Pretty sure, at least the last time I checked, Syria and an Islamist movement weren't modern democracies. 1st first world countries answer to a higher standard. Deal with it.