The Blue Jays: 2009 Season Thread

[moon]

Oh oh, Snider hit a HR, how long until McCown starts the Snider for AL MVP campaign?

Good to see he has that average up to .250 now, hopefully he doesn't have to hit again this season or he could flirt with the Mendoza line.

[flamesaresmokin]

Originally Posted by moon

Oh oh, Snider hit a HR, how long until McCown starts the Snider for AL MVP campaign?

Good to see he has that average up to .250 now, hopefully he doesn't have to hit again this season or he could flirt with the Mendoza line.

Yeah a few more extra base hits and he will be making our "star" center fielder look even more like a waste of space.

[CaramonLS]

I truly don't understand the Jays. Obviously for whatever reason Riccardi must be holding on to the faintest of faint hopes and is still praying that he can trade Wells... even for a song. That is the ONLY possible reason that could justify Wells staying and playing CF. But I'm afraid it is a very poor notion he still has stuck in his head.

Rios should've been moved over a while ago. Better range, arm, speed and overall tools.

Oh yeah, it would have improved his trade value significantly too - people will trade for a decent defender in CF with a .750 OPS contract and pay quite well for it. Baseball GMs don't give 2 sh*ts about corner defense, but they do love defense up the middle. Right or wrong, this is a prevailing philosophy in baseball. CFs are infinitely more valued than the corners.

Say what you want about the move, but they should have done this first... 2 years ago.

The Jays need to accept that Wells is an overpaid sink hole in the corner OF. Hell it might even improve his production if they actually put him in a spot where he could get to a ball...

Damn that is an angry post.

[SteveToms]

We should just stick Wells on a barge and let it float out to sea.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by moon

Oh oh, Snider hit a HR, how long until McCown starts the Snider for AL MVP campaign?

Good to see he has that average up to .250 now, hopefully he doesn't have to hit again this season or he could flirt with the Mendoza line.

Frig the guy is what 21? What do you expect?

[moon]

Originally Posted by flambers

Frig the guy is what 21? What do you expect?

I expect that he will play like a 21 year old, which is what he has done.

I think it is the crazy (not all) Jays fans that think he is/will be ready to be a big time contributor right away that you should be asking what they expect.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by moon

I expect that he will play like a 21 year old, which is what he has done.

I think it is the crazy (not all) Jays fans that think he is/will be ready to be a big time contributor right away that you should be asking what they expect.

There is no way he is playing like a "21 year old" if he was he would be in single A ball. That is the problem he is way ahead of the curve which raises everyones expectations.

From a Jays perspective, its great to see him get called up and have a solid game....

[moon]

Originally Posted by flambers

There is no way he is playing like a "21 year old" if he was he would be in single A ball. That is the problem he is way ahead of the curve which raises everyones expectations.

From a Jays perspective, its great to see him get called up and have a solid game....

He is playing like a 21 one year old when he comes up to the majors and can't hit consistently (like happened earlier).

I have no issues with Snider. I really don't care if he hits or not, my comment was in response to Jays fans that I have heard and read who seem ready to annoint this guy as the next big thing in MLB. Which is why I included the McCown comment who referred to him as the #1 prospect in all of baseball.

[flambers]

Originally Posted by moon

He is playing like a 21 one year old when he comes up to the majors and can't hit consistently (like happened earlier).

I have no issues with Snider. I really don't care if he hits or not, my comment was in response to Jays fans that I have heard and read who seem ready to annoint this guy as the next big thing in MLB. Which is why I included the McCown comment who referred to him as the #1 prospect in all of baseball.

Last time I checked MLB had him ranked very high as well, in my view the guy does have the capability to be a star player but it might take a few years.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by moon

I guess it was me who made the post "ripping" Moneyball, when all I did is point out that it hasn't ever been shown to work.

Youkillis is a guy (walks and all) that would be a very good player on any team or any system. To me using him as an example that Moneyball works is crap as he could be used as an example that any system works because is a very good player period.

Well seeing how Moneyball really isn't just about walking and OBP (as you clearly think it is).

Youkillis is an example of Moneyball because he was an under-valued asset when he was a prospect.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by moon

He is playing like a 21 one year old when he comes up to the majors and can't hit consistently (like happened earlier).

I have no issues with Snider. I really don't care if he hits or not, my comment was in response to Jays fans that I have heard and read who seem ready to annoint this guy as the next big thing in MLB. Which is why I included the McCown comment who referred to him as the #1 prospect in all of baseball.

There's more people than Jays fans anointing Snider as one of the next big things in baseball. The guy is a top 5 prospect in the MLB hands down.

And when Snider puts up a 1.094 OPS in 48 games in AAA this year there's going to be people who expect him to produce at the MLB level as well. He may only be 21, but the league is getting younger and younger and teams like the Jays need to take advantage of Snider's pre-arbitration years.

[moon]

Originally Posted by JayP

Well seeing how Moneyball really isn't just about walking and OBP (as you clearly think it is).

Youkillis is an example of Moneyball because he was an under-valued asset when he was a prospect.

So because I said walks and all that means that I clearly think that Moneyball is all about walking and OBP?

Originally Posted by JayP

There's more people than Jays fans anointing Snider as one of the next big things in baseball. The guy is a top 5 prospect in the MLB hands down.

I have never said he wasn't a good prospect but top 5 is very debateable, especially the hands down part. I would agree with Keith Law and say that Snider is in the top 20 right now.

My issue is with guys like McCown (who called him the top prospect in MLB) and Wilner, as well as fans on other sites, who have this guy as a top level contributor next season who look only at the fact that he hit a HR and use that as proof that he is going to be ready sooner than later while ignoring the fact that he has still struggled to hit at the MLB level.

I think he is likely going to be very good, at some point, and think it is crazy that these people are planning on him being a solution to the Jays hitting woes next season.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by moon

So because I said walks and all that means that I clearly think that Moneyball is all about walking and OBP?

It's more that you somehow think the fact that Youkillis turned out to be a great player is a reason Moneyball doesn't work. The real fact is that at that time Youkillis was thought of as a very average prospect that Boston didn't value that highly. Moneyball is all about finding those guys (although Beane could never trade for Youkillis).

Since then, valuing OBP (and SLG/OPS) has become mainstream and, as such, the Moneyball philosophy has very little to do with that anymore.

I have never said he wasn't a good prospect but top 5 is very debateable, especially the hands down part. I would agree with Keith Law and say that Snider is in the top 20 right now.

My issue is with guys like McCown (who called him the top prospect in MLB) and Wilner, as well as fans on other sites, who have this guy as a top level contributor next season who look only at the fact that he hit a HR and use that as proof that he is going to be ready sooner than later while ignoring the fact that he has still struggled to hit at the MLB level.

I think he is likely going to be very good, at some point, and think it is crazy that these people are planning on him being a solution to the Jays hitting woes next season.

I'd like to see quotes referring to Snider as an elite contributor because I haven't heard any.

[moon]

Originally Posted by JayP

It's more that you somehow think the fact that Youkillis turned out to be a great player is a reason Moneyball doesn't work. The real fact is that at that time Youkillis was thought of as a very average prospect that Boston didn't value that highly. Moneyball is all about finding those guys (although Beane could never trade for Youkillis).

I am not sure where I said that Youkilis turning out to be a great player means that Moneyball doesn't work.

I said that the fact that Boston won, while supposedly being Moneyball guys, doesn't prove that it works because they didn't win based on Moneyball ideas, they won because of the fact that they spend more money than anyone else other than the Yankees.

In my view what Boston did/does has no bearing on Moneyball, positive or negative, because of the money that they spend.

I'd like to see quotes referring to Snider as an elite contributor because I haven't heard any.

Well Wilner and McCown are on the radio so it will be tough to find quotes, but McCown said that Snider was the top prospect in MLB on Tuesday I think, whenever Keith Law was on, and Wilner repeatedly talked up Snider on his post game shows on the Fan 590. If you haven't listened to either then I can see how you wouldn't have heard it but for anyone that has listened to them it was apparent how much both were selling the guy as a major contributor sooner than later. Wilner talked about him being there this year all the time in the early part of the year.

As for the other fans it was on other boards/ESPN/TSN from earlier in the season. I can go back and look through them to find quotes if it is that important, but considering the euphoria Jays fans were feeling early on I am not sure why you think that many of those same fans didn't think Snider was ready to go right away.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by moon

So because I said walks and all that means that I clearly think that Moneyball is all about walking and OBP?

I have never said he wasn't a good prospect but top 5 is very debateable, especially the hands down part. I would agree with Keith Law and say that Snider is in the top 20 right now.

My issue is with guys like McCown (who called him the top prospect in MLB) and Wilner, as well as fans on other sites, who have this guy as a top level contributor next season who look only at the fact that he hit a HR and use that as proof that he is going to be ready sooner than later while ignoring the fact that he has still struggled to hit at the MLB level.

I think he is likely going to be very good, at some point, and think it is crazy that these people are planning on him being a solution to the Jays hitting woes next season.

What Snider did in AAA this year is nothing short of great. He is one of the top prospects in MLB and yeah, it isn't just Jays fans talking about him either.

In 2008 he was ranked #11 by MLB (according to baseball america). Most HS prospect don't even come close to making this much of an impact in the low minors this quickly at this age.

I don't think Snider will be an impact player next year (I predict .800-850 OPS, decent, but not amazing), but in 2011, I could see him competing for a top 10 spot amoung leaders for OPS, kind of like Lind is doing right now.

Almost every single 21 year old player struggles initially - having an OPS+ score of 101 (where 100 is LEAGUE AVERAGE) for someone his age is pretty damned good. I don't think that is struggling at all, prospects rarely, if ever come out and totally tear the cover off the ball. He has only played ~ 30% of a season (173 ABs).

Just an FYI moon, Snider iisn't even close playing at the level of a "typical 21 year old". Most of them are still in College or Rookie ball.

[Machiavelli]

Encarnacion sucks.


That is all.

[moon]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

What Snider did in AAA this year is nothing short of great. He is one of the top prospects in MLB and yeah, it isn't just Jays fans talking about him either.

In 2008 he was ranked #11 by MLB (according to baseball america). Most HS prospect don't even come close to making this much of an impact in the low minors this quickly at this age.

I don't think Snider will be an impact player next year (I predict .800-850 OPS, decent, but not amazing), but in 2011, I could see him competing for a top 10 spot amoung leaders for OPS, kind of like Lind is doing right now.

Almost every single 21 year old player struggles initially - having an OPS+ score of 101 (where 100 is LEAGUE AVERAGE) for someone his age is pretty damned good. I don't think that is struggling at all, prospects rarely, if ever come out and totally tear the cover off the ball. He has only played ~ 30% of a season (173 ABs).

So to sum it up you agree with me.

Just an FYI moon, Snider iisn't even close playing at the level of a "typical 21 year old". Most of them are still in College or Rookie ball.

In terms of not being ready for the majors, yes he is playing at the level of a typical 21 year old.

It is great that he is ripping up the minors but for the Blue Jays success this year, and likely next, that means the same as any other 21 year old player.

[Pagal4321]

Originally Posted by Machiavelli

Encarnacion sucks.


That is all.

^^^^ What she said.

At least he's getting frustrated with the fact he sucks.

[fundmark19]

Dear Jays,

Please win at least one game against the Red Sox

Signed

The Rays

[Machiavelli]

Playing the Blue Jays is the cure-all for whatever ails a baseball team.