[News] Calgary, Alberta, & CSEC agree in principle to $1.223bn Event Centre + infrastructure

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Wormius

I am really just hoping that anyone who believes taxpayers giving a sports team hundreds of millions to provide a few menial jobs is great will never complain about government funded anything in the future.

Blue Ring? Peace Bridge? Library? Nope. A publicly-funded arena basically trumps everything. SaveCalgary and Cory Morgan are going to have to find new shticks.

Well of all those, the only objectively stupid waste of money is the Bloop.

Literally everything else makes the city better, and this does too.

[sureLoss]

More observations:



Blue outline is Event Centre 1.0 footprint. It helps visualize the much larger plazas Event Centre 2.0 will have. The NW and SW plazas will also help with the city's plan of turning Stampede Trail into a festival street and gathering place for the district:
https://www.cedistrict.com/projects/stampede-trail

Magenta dotted outline are the 4 parcels of land CSEC are reportedly getting options to acquire. Apparently the city wasn't willing to give Postmedia the sizes of the parcels, but left them in PDF comments they are distributing to everyone so I added them into the image.

Postmedia also reporting that CSEC will get Right of First Offer on the bus barn lands.

The 0.53 acre parcel that abuts Event Centre 2.0 in the NE corner is interesting. Looks like they want to do something similar to what the Aquilinis did, which was build a 26 floor mixed use tower in the corner of Roger's Arena: https://www.aquilinicentre.com/wp-co...Q_MK_Email.pdf

In the previous deal, the Flames got the option to buy the Enoch Sales Land at 2017 market prices and the option expired when shovels hit the ground for the Event Centre. The latest renderings from the city for event centre 2.0 no longer show any future development on that land. Wonder if there is an issue with that land.

If you are wondering why the hotel wasn't an option, the partnership for that hotel was announced in Dec 2022:
https://www.calgarymlc.ca/bmo-convention-centre-hotel

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You and Backlund using the same daycare isn’t much proof that having a pro sports team in town creates a bunch of jobs the way moving a head office would.

Of all the things to debate, this seems like the most ridiculous.

I was responding to your point that players spend their money elsewhere, which isn’t accurate.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by TOfan

I was responding to your point that players spend their money elsewhere, which isn’t accurate.

I think it is reasonably accurate.

How many Flames make Calgary their year round home and are part of the city's tax base, spending their money with local businesses? Some of them sure, your anecdotal example proves it.

And then several spend their entire off season somewhere else. And are on the road for a huge chunk of the season.

Spend $80 million on NHL player salaries and some percentage of that is returned directly to the local economy.

Move a corporation's head office here and spend $80 million on "regular" jobs and a far larger percentage stays in the local economy.

[Jimdon]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I think it is reasonably accurate.

How many Flames make Calgary their year round home and are part of the city's tax base, spending their money with local businesses? Some of them sure, your anecdotal example proves it.

And then several spend their entire off season somewhere else. And are on the road for a huge chunk of the season.

Spend $80 million on NHL player salaries and some percentage of that is returned directly to the local economy.

Move a corporation's head office here and spend $80 million on "regular" jobs and a far larger percentage stays in the local economy.

Yes and no. The workers for that corporation would add to the local economy by paying taxes, the Corp itself would likely siphon money out of the province by taking advantage of all of the tax breaks and moving their profits to a tax haven somewhere. The alberta advantage right?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

In the previous deal, the Flames got the option to buy the Enoch Sales Land at 2017 market prices and the option expired when shovels hit the ground for the Event Centre. The latest renderings from the city for event centre 2.0 no longer show any future development on that land. Wonder if there is an issue with that land.

Or CSEC scooped that parcel up after general RE prices skyrocketed before scuttling the deal...

Do you have a source on the 2017 price thing? I'd love to read more.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

Yes and no. The workers for that corporation would add to the local economy by paying taxes, the Corp itself would likely siphon money out of the province by taking advantage of all of the tax breaks and moving their profits to a tax haven somewhere. The alberta advantage right?

You’re referring to income tax and who knows what kind of tax planning a corporation could do and how profitable it would be. I’m certain CSEC does their share of tax planning and I bet their current income taxes are very low.

[Jimdon]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You’re referring to income tax and who knows what kind of tax planning a corporation could do and how profitable it would be. I’m certain CSEC does their share of tax planning and I bet their current income taxes are very low.

I think you would win that bet. Edwards was the poster child for tax dodging in alberta when he moved his residence overseas at the same time as the government raised his tax rate. He's no.different than the majority of oil companies that operate here. Profits from these corporations rarely translate into any type of gains for Alberta.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Or CSEC scooped that parcel up after general RE prices skyrocketed before scuttling the deal...

Do you have a source on the 2017 price thing? I'd love to read more.

Think the land is still owned by CMLC. There is currently an application for a development permit (filed on March 14, 2023) to turn part of the land into a dog park, skate park, basket ball court, and EV charging station according to the City of Calgary website.

No source. That was based off my memory from the City Council meeting when the 1st deal was approved.

[TOfan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I think it is reasonably accurate.

How many Flames make Calgary their year round home and are part of the city's tax base, spending their money with local businesses? Some of them sure, your anecdotal example proves it.

And then several spend their entire off season somewhere else. And are on the road for a huge chunk of the season.

Spend $80 million on NHL player salaries and some percentage of that is returned directly to the local economy.

Move a corporation's head office here and spend $80 million on "regular" jobs and a far larger percentage stays in the local economy.

Sure. You seem to be confused though.

I never said a thing about a corporation’s move to or from a City. Not one word.

All I was getting at is your point that Flames players ‘spend their money elsewhere’ isn’t entirely accurate.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by TOfan

Sure. You seem to be confused though.

I never said a thing about a corporation’s move to or from a City. Not one word.

All I was getting at is your point that Flames players ‘spend their money elsewhere’ isn’t entirely accurate.

Well I guess you interpreted my comment that they spend their money elsewhere to mean that they don’t spend a single cent in the local economy. Of course they do.

[Mattman]

I think an overlooked area of this whole deal is the Stampedes cut in all this.

I think that they benefit the most from this project with just the new land that they receive. When you throw in a new BMO building and expanded land just to the east of it, that is going to be a huge opportunity to grow.

It almost expands the Stampede ground by 1/3. Maybe more because the new event center will certainly be used for concerts etc. as the Dome is used now.

I know I may not agree with some of the hot takes in this thread, but I think we can celebrate opportunity to grow that area of Calgary into something more grand.

It's gotta be the right cost for everyone involved, but it is vital to the growth of this city.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Jimdon

I think you would win that bet. Edwards was the poster child for tax dodging in alberta when he moved his residence overseas at the same time as the government raised his tax rate.

There's a lot of reasons to move from Alberta to London; saving taxes isn't really one of them. The top English marginal tax rate is 47% (with national insurance), Alberta is 48%. If he wanted to save taxes, he would have gone to the same tax havens rich Brits go to, like Monaco.

He probably just wanted to enjoy the lifestyle of one of the premier cities of the world. Or has a mistress/illegitimate children there.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by accord1999

There's a lot of reasons to move from Alberta to London; saving taxes isn't really one of them. The top English marginal tax rate is 47% (with national insurance), Alberta is 48%. If he wanted to save taxes, he would have gone to the same tax havens rich Brits go to, like Monaco.

He probably just wanted to enjoy the lifestyle of one of the premier cities of the world. Or has a mistress/illegitimate children there.

Edwards’ wife was the one with a mistress.

Edwards somehow did save taxes by moving, according to some. Don’t ask me how, but he’s buddies with some of the top tax guys in Alberta. But anyway, he lives in Switzerland now.

[marsplasticeraser]

Originally Posted by accord1999

There's a lot of reasons to move from Alberta to London; saving taxes isn't really one of them. The top English marginal tax rate is 47% (with national insurance), Alberta is 48%. If he wanted to save taxes, he would have gone to the same tax havens rich Brits go to, like Monaco.

He probably just wanted to enjoy the lifestyle of one of the premier cities of the world. Or has a mistress/illegitimate children there.

Lol. Like he’s paying English taxes!

Billionaires don’t pay taxes in the uk (or anywhere else for that matter).

What is likely is that a corporation with HQ and tax residency in the Channel Islands or Caribbean is paying his uk housing costs and probably giving him a loan for him to have some spending money, and he is pay packet that is subject to uk taxes is zero or a token amount (for him).

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Mattman

I think an overlooked area of this whole deal is the Stampedes cut in all this.

I think that they benefit the most from this project with just the new land that they receive. When you throw in a new BMO building and expanded land just to the east of it, that is going to be a huge opportunity to grow.

It almost expands the Stampede ground by 1/3. Maybe more because the new event center will certainly be used for concerts etc. as the Dome is used now.

I know I may not agree with some of the hot takes in this thread, but I think we can celebrate opportunity to grow that area of Calgary into something more grand.

It's gotta be the right cost for everyone involved, but it is vital to the growth of this city.

The previous deal was a relatively even land swap - roughly 7 acres for 7ish acres (not sure on Saddledome plot). The Saddledome land is inherently much less valuable than the new arena site, as it is essentially an enclave. It's probably not a huge downgrade for Stampede, but it's definitely a downgrade from the status quo.

Current deal looks more like 10 acres for ~5 acres, with the exclusion of the Saddledome Parkade. So I'm sure Stampede is getting more $$ to balance the scales.

There are certainly pros/cons to all of this for Stampede; they are going through substantial changes with the BMO Centre and 17 Ave extension, so there will be big operational changes no matter what.

[PeteMoss]

I reject the argument that the Flames would leave without this arena. The NHL has shown very little appetite to move teams from viable markets unless everything fails. The idea they'd let Murray or whoever pick up and move to Houston and cost them a market they can use to get $1 billion expansion fee doesn't make sense to me.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I reject the argument that the Flames would leave without this arena. The NHL has shown very little appetite to move teams from viable markets unless everything fails. The idea they'd let Murray or whoever pick up and move to Houston and cost them a market they can use to get $1 billion expansion fee doesn't make sense to me.

EVEN if you do 100% believe this argument, then the deal reached should not exceed the last deal + consideration for a relocation fee (say $200 million as has been spat out here.)

Current deal seems to be worth more than that spread.

[chedder]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Edwards’ wife was the one with a mistress.



Edwards somehow did save taxes by moving, according to some. Don’t ask me how, but he’s buddies with some of the top tax guys in Alberta. But anyway, he lives in Switzerland now.

I believe he originally went to the Isle of Man which is a tax haven and has a separate tax regime than Great Britain.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

EVEN if you do 100% believe this argument, then the deal reached should not exceed the last deal + consideration for a relocation fee (say $200 million as has been spat out here.)

Current deal seems to be worth more than that spread.

Believing that they will leave (or even a decent chance they will leave) is what leads you to spend a bucket load of money to keep the team in town.

All the talk about jobs being added is moot if you don't believe they will truly leave since I'm sure the new arena will bring in minimal new jobs over the Flames playing the Saddledome.

It changes your situation to losing jobs/team to potentially losing some tax revenue if the team builds their own arena outside of Calgary's tax area (sort of like Ottawa's arena being in Kanata instead of Ottawa or or Florida being in Sunrise instead of Miami)