Flames fire Geoff Ward, hire Darryl Sutter, signs 3 year deal

[tvp2003]

I don’t think this is a skilled team. If they were we would see them take over games offensively but they haven’t done so on any consistent basis since January of 2019. They have some individual talents like Gaudreau, but this isn’t a lineup that can outscore other teams at will the way the top end guys in Edmonton and Toronto can. Sutter knows it, and quite frankly that’s why he was brought in.

I’m not prepared to throw in the towel after one loss, but I do think it will be interesting how Sutter and the team responds.

Originally Posted by dino7c

Some people act like the 04 team never lost a game...they were a bubble team that went on a run but a couple bounces and it goes nowhere.

They finished 6th in the conference but went on a run in the Playoffs thanks to stellar goaltending and clutch goals. Unfortunately they didn’t get either last night.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

They finished 6th in the conference but went on a run in the Playoffs thanks to stellar goaltending and clutch goals. Unfortunately they didn’t get either last night.

2004's 6th place was misleading as they only had Kipper for 39 games. This created an illusion that they were a bubble team that went on a sudden run. They were not. They were good enough to make playoffs as 6th seed with Turek/MacLennan playing 43 games. No way 2021 edition makes playoffs with Markstrom out for half a season. 2004's team pro-rated record with Kipper was like 3rd in the West and 5th in the whole league. I remember their regular season record with Kipper being better than Detroit's regular season with Joseph, which is why the win over Red Wings wasn't all that surprising really. Flames were legit contender led by legit superstars.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Pointman

2004's 6th place was misleading as they only had Kipper for 39 games. This created an illusion that they were a bubble team that went on a sudden run. They were not. They were good enough to make playoffs as 6th seed with Turek/MacLennan playing 43 games. No way 2021 edition makes playoffs with Markstrom out for half a season. 2004's team pro-rated record with Kipper was like 3rd in the West and 5th in the whole league. I remember their regular season record with Kipper being better than Detroit's regular season with Joseph, which is why the win over Red Wings wasn't all that surprising really. Flames were legit contender led by legit superstars.

IIRC Turek and MacLennan played pretty darn well, though. Probably not too far off Talbot/Rittich level last year...

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

I don’t think this is a skilled team. If they were we would see them take over games offensively but they haven’t done so on any consistent basis since January of 2019. They have some individual talents like Gaudreau, but this isn’t a lineup that can outscore other teams at will the way the top end guys in Edmonton and Toronto can. Sutter knows it, and quite frankly that’s why he was brought in.

I’m not prepared to throw in the towel after one loss, but I do think it will be interesting how Sutter and the team responds.



They finished 6th in the conference but went on a run in the Playoffs thanks to stellar goaltending and clutch goals. Unfortunately they didn’t get either last night.

It's not a super skilled team, no. There's no gamebreaking skill really, Johnny and Monny can score when they are on but I don't think other teams fear them, it's easy to outskate and outwork them. That leaves wildcards like Dube and Mangiapane who are good NHL wingers but ... I mean every team has good NHL wingers, the sad thing is that we are so excited to have legit NHL caliber guys.

It's close, it's a good team when playing well, when the pieces are working, it's close, but it's not a great team, and the proof is how hard they are struggling in a mediocre division (whether you want to talk about the Pacific or this year's Canadian Division).

Alas.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by tvp2003

I don’t think this is a skilled team. If they were we would see them take over games offensively but they haven’t done so on any consistent basis since January of 2019. They have some individual talents like Gaudreau, but this isn’t a lineup that can outscore other teams at will the way the top end guys in Edmonton and Toronto can. Sutter knows it, and quite frankly that’s why he was brought in.

I’m not prepared to throw in the towel after one loss, but I do think it will be interesting how Sutter and the team responds.



They finished 6th in the conference but went on a run in the Playoffs thanks to stellar goaltending and clutch goals. Unfortunately they didn’t get either last night.

This is definitely a more skilled team then they are anything else. I mean they certainly have the inconsistent work ethic and fragility of a skilled group. Are they skilled enough though? No. At least not in this division which might be the most skill heavy division in the league.

I think one big problem is that the skilled players on this aren’t the types that can just put a team on their backs and carry the team to victory on any given night. Johnny Gaudreau is the closest, but they’re very line dependent. They need the entire line to be completely functional in order to maximize their talent. They can’t just go by pairs like they’re currently doing. The McDavids and Draisaitls and Matthews of this division can do the pair thing, the Flames group cannot IMO.

[Boreal]

What does skilled team mean?

To me a skilled team it is a team full of players that can execute on opportunities.

McDavid and Draisatl do this consistently. The rest of the Oilers rely on them and the ice time crumbs from their table.

If you consistently give them looks they will consistently capitalize.

I believe Sutter’s strength is in taking guys with very high hockey sense who “can” execute at an elite level, but not with the consistency of a Matthews or McDavid, and then inverting that hockey sense into applications for defensive hockey.

He can help players take the ability to read a play and reacting to it defensively by comprehending what the offensive options in a situation on the ice and smothering them.

He was able to take guys like Roenick, Amonte, Damphouse, Conroy, Carter, Kopitar and make them better or elite defensively.

I think he sees huge potential in Lindholm, but the question is whether or not the players buy in.

It can be a tough subject.

Bowman gets celebrated for turning Yzerman into a Selke winner, but less celebrated is his work with Serge Savard. When Bowman approached Savard about playing defensively Serge took it the wrong way and it took Bowman time to communicate what he actually meant.

Years later, when he broached the subject with Yzerman he was able to do discuss the same topic more effectively.

[genetic_phreek]

The main concern for Sutter as coach is his style of play creates low scoring games. Goalies will benefit, but from a statistical stance, guys are going to score less. As a hockey fan, I love the run and gun wild west style of play which I think for myself individually it's going to be a long three years of entertainment.

The ATL people aren't wrong when they talk about a "boring" style of hockey. I'm sure we'll get victories and I hope we do have success going forward. The analogy for Sutter hockey for combat sports fans out there, under Sutter we'll get mostly decision victories instead of finish victories.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by genetic_phreek

The main concern for Sutter as coach is his style of play creates low scoring games. Goalies will benefit, but from a statistical stance, guys are going to score less. As a hockey fan, I love the run and gun wild west style of play which I think for myself individually it's going to be a long three years of entertainment.

The ATL people aren't wrong when they talk about a "boring" style of hockey. I'm sure we'll get victories and I hope we do have success going forward. The analogy for Sutter hockey for combat sports fans out there, under Sutter we'll get mostly decision victories instead of finish victories.

True-ish...but I mean, if our PP didn't look like a pile of heaping crap half the time and we executed on them more often than not I bet we're singing a bit of a different tune.

[Yamer]

https://twitter.com/user/status/1372987508624097289

[dino7c]

3 of 4 Sutter games have been entertaining...of course the opposition fans aren't entertained by getting worked that is not a bad thing.

Do you guy enjoy it when the Flames are dominated like the Flames did to the Habs

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by dino7c

3 of 4 Sutter games have been entertaining...of course the opposition fans aren't entertained by getting worked that is not a bad thing.

Do you guy enjoy it when the Flames are dominated like the Flames did to the Habs

I enjoy winning, so I’m willing to accept being the boring team of the division. Would I prefer being a high octane offense that can still dominate, yes, but that option doesn’t appear to be viable right now. So I’ll take a boring, low event hockey if we’re winning then generally entertaining, yet infuriating losses.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by Yamer

https://twitter.com/user/status/1372987508624097289

I think he’s always been at the cutting edge of using information that he believes is useful. Analytics is just (descriptive, predictive, or prescriptive) information gathered from data or tests on data (statistics).

As a player he learned from Roger Neilson who had crude archaic technology to work with.

From video, to goalies, to analytic coaches I believe he uses the information that has proven to be correct to the fullest extent.

[Classic_Sniper]

Something I’d be curious to know, with Gaudreau’s opinion about all the dumping and chasing, it got me to thinking what people around here think about the consistent dump and chase strategy? I personally have always been fine with dump and chase, so it doesn’t bother me. But there were posters in this place who screamed bloody murder about all the dumping and chasing. Now I wonder what everyone thinks of the new primary strategy?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Something I’d be curious to know, with Gaudreau’s opinion about all the dumping and chasing, it got me to thinking what people around here think about the consistent dump and chase strategy? I personally have always been fine with dump and chase, so it doesn’t bother me. But there were posters in this place who screamed bloody murder about all the dumping and chasing. Now I wonder what everyone thinks of the new primary strategy?

Last year I watched a fair bit of TB in the POs. They dumped and chased a ton.

[Boreal]

Dump and chase looses its efficacy when it becomes predictable. It becomes predictable when teams don’t have the skill to enable options & different looks to execute plays and score off the rush.

The Flames can do both, but not with organized consistently. Will Sutter find the mix, or as he puts it... “put the puzzle together.”?

Under Ward they were disorganized and playing like a rush and chase team, which isnt really anything but sporadic chaos.

It is like being a little bit pregnant. You either are or you’re not.

The Leafs have shown they can play a rush game effectively this season. But if you’re playing hesitant on the rush or not executing passes out of your zone, not making plays and scoring..,. you’re not a rush team and they weren’t.

To win in the playoffs you need to be able to be capable to play both ways to win and play with more physicality.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Hm. Tough crowd

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Yamer

https://twitter.com/user/status/1372987508624097289

[MOD EDIT] A bit much.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Yamer

https://twitter.com/user/status/1372987508624097289

Spoiler!

Leafs feel they got boned?

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Something I’d be curious to know, with Gaudreau’s opinion about all the dumping and chasing, it got me to thinking what people around here think about the consistent dump and chase strategy? I personally have always been fine with dump and chase, so it doesn’t bother me. But there were posters in this place who screamed bloody murder about all the dumping and chasing. Now I wonder what everyone thinks of the new primary strategy?

I don't think it's primary. I think they are being coached to take what's given. Book on the Flames has been clog up the neutral zone, they'll turn it over at low pace. The cure for that is a dump and hard chase, so that's getting a lot of looks right now. As teams adapt defensively to that, we'll see another seeming change of style/attempt. This is what wasn't happening much (that I could see) under Ward.

[NewFan]

Originally Posted by Classic_Sniper

Something I’d be curious to know, with Gaudreau’s opinion about all the dumping and chasing, it got me to thinking what people around here think about the consistent dump and chase strategy? I personally have always been fine with dump and chase, so it doesn’t bother me. But there were posters in this place who screamed bloody murder about all the dumping and chasing. Now I wonder what everyone thinks of the new primary strategy?

In my opinion, dumping and chasing is not their the first choice. Sutter wants then to move the puck out and fast to other side. It can be skating with puck, or short pass and out or if there is no other option dump the puck the place that can continue with forecheck. Main goal is the puck must move front fast and everydody's expectation will be same.
When Johnny gets puck he usually doesn't have option other than dump because Monahan and Richie are behind him and other team's D always clise check him whenever he get's puck.
Ward doesn't give the team this instruction and wants them hold puck until all ready to attack. Then when the team gets puck nobody knows what the players will do with the puck. So some of them trying to go empty space, some of them wait in blue line and some of them coming back to D zone to circle and get speed. So the team looked confused.
I think Johnny need puck carrier in his line and need get puck when he has speed and a little space. Richie can forecheck but can't do other things. Johnny needs Lindholm or similar RW can skate, carry the puck and win battle 1 on 1