Arena Negotiation Discussion v2

[Weitz]

They are going to be in a tough position to justify the 20%+ increase in tickets they will be looking for when it opens. Going to be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

DO not like that layout at all. The seats in the 2nd bowl are really far from the ice - very similar to Glendale.

As for whether the project gets delayed, maybe, we'll see. But the absolute best time to build things is while the economy has cooled. Everything is cheaper. And when you're talking about a multi-year project, trying to predict demand at time of completion is pretty difficult. Either the league plans on moving forward, or it doesn't.

The second level will be far. It’s just the way it is now with all the luxury seating.

[Manhattanboy]

Let’s just scrap life as we know it. Everything. Jesus.

[dammage79]

It's why I like the inverted bowl design so much. It really should be the one. 2nd tier fans still get a great viewing experience in their design.

Little Cesar is really nice though. Still, hopefully they try to keep the 2nd level closer to keep that feel the dome provided.

And yeah, doubt they scrap the build. That's jobs that wouldn't be available otherwise.

[Two Fivenagame]

Wouldn't construction and labour costs be falling as well? Ken King, may he rest in peace, was adamant about the timing of the project having a lot to do with labour costs in this province.

[The Familia]

I think one of the biggest things to help stimulate a downturn in the economy is infrastructure. If you look at every economic depression across the world throughout various time periods, one of the first things done to stimulate the economy is infrastructure/make work capital projects. It really is the best time to build. Materials and labour are both cheap. It provides jobs and creates cash flow. It also gives a boost psychologically to the population that things are rebounding and growing. Nothing worse than watching your city decay during a depression and sitting around doing nothing to help.

I think this is the best time to forge ahead with things like the arena, BMO expansion, field house, arts commons, green line, etc. Maybe not all of them but a good chunk.

[JBR]

Originally Posted by nobles_point

I would think a good chunk of the arena’s expense would be its own underground world they created. The Red Wings practice rink is part of the building and located underground in addition to other amenities.

It’s an interesting concept to buffer the arena itself with commercial buildings for at least half of the perimeter with public access on the exterior & entrance to the covered outdoor concourse on the interior.

I guess the covered concourse is open to the public most days giving the feel of an outdoor mall.

There are plenty of concepts here I think the Flames could pull from. I would hope the underground world is a non-starter.

The covered concourse is not open to the public. The brick structures on the outside of the concourse are part of the arena project. They weren't there previously. Team store is open to the public from the street side but not much else on non-event dates.

[Boreal]

Originally Posted by JBR

The covered concourse is not open to the public. The brick structures on the outside of the concourse are part of the arena project. They weren't there previously. Team store is open to the public from the street side but not much else on non-event dates.

Based on what I read on the Piston’s website it said it is open to the public most days, but that might change or what they are referring to is something different.

The Little Caesars Arena Via concourse is open to the public on most days. Guests will pass through security screening to enter the facility.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Weitz

The second level will be far. It’s just the way it is now with all the luxury seating.

If only there was a design where this wasn't the case...

Also, it's a matter of degrees - it would be better if it was no further than necessary. This design is really stretched out.

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by The Familia

I think one of the biggest things to help stimulate a downturn in the economy is infrastructure. If you look at every economic depression across the world throughout various time periods, one of the first things done to stimulate the economy is infrastructure/make work capital projects. It really is the best time to build. Materials and labour are both cheap. It provides jobs and creates cash flow. It also gives a boost psychologically to the population that things are rebounding and growing. Nothing worse than watching your city decay during a depression and sitting around doing nothing to help.

I think this is the best time to forge ahead with things like the arena, BMO expansion, field house, arts commons, green line, etc. Maybe not all of them but a good chunk.

Agreed. This will be going full steam ahead. And any doubt in the green line starting construction next year can be laid to rest at this point.

There's going to be projects going forward from here on out due to labour costs and the need for jobs.

[shogged]

Originally Posted by Reggie Dunlop

I liked the Rosetti inverted bowl concept.

this was such a great concept that I almost wish i didn't see it. CSEC is the last organization on earth that would try something new like this lol. The new building will be a very safe design and I think that's a shame.

[jayswin]

^^^^^

Safe and now likely scaled back a bit in terms of costs.

[jayswin]

We started this journey in 2007 and will now have our end product affected by a 2020 pandemic. Who could have precited that?

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by jayswin

We started this journey in 2007 and will now have our end product affected by a 2020 pandemic. Who could have precited that?

It's a world-class pandemic, so at least we can cross that off our bingo cards

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Freeway

Flames have run a tight ship financially over the past few seasons. Losing a big chunk of revenue will hurt, but the amount the new barn's revenue will boost things is probably a necessary evil. Scrapping this wouldn't serve either side's interests, to be honest.

That is very much a business as usual type of perspective. Let’s see about that. While no doubt there will be a pent up demand for sports, $25 oil is going to have a profound effect on many things. And maybe all the construction spending and boost to the local economy should go towards a hospital?

Don’t want to open a can of worms or the entire debate but I don’t see how this wouldn’t at least put a pause on things.

[powderjunkie]

I agree with the notion of infrastructure investment during a downturn, but I think certain projects are better than others (preferably more costs for labour and local equipment). Build pipelines, energy corridors , repave highways (adding lanes where necessary), etc.


Things that would have seemed crazy to wonder about 35 days ago:

- whether global supply chain disruptions could cause significant delays in procuring certain supplies/equipment

- viability of pro sports model as we know it (we assume a vaccine is coming, but what if it takes longer than we expect? mutations? what about another pandemic? or a global recession/depression?)

- viability of the NHL (what if mass gatherings remain impossible in places like NYC, TOR, and MTL for a lot longer than we expect?)

- viability of the Flames in Alberta's possible economy

I'm not saying that these things are likely to happen, but I'm not sure either side should feel keen to throw $270M of chips into the middle until a return to normalcy [from a pro-sports context] seems inevitable.


I'll save my green line thoughts for its thread at somepoint, but TLDR: I'm as concerned about OPEX increases as CAPEX, and I don't think it's crazy to ask similar existential questions from a public transit standpoint. We'll always need to move people around the city, but will downtown be the same kind of 9-5 hub 5 days a week as it used to be? More reason to pursue the more flexible (and much cheaper) SE BRT option.

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by shogged

this was such a great concept that I almost wish i didn't see it. CSEC is the last organization on earth that would try something new like this lol. The new building will be a very safe design and I think that's a shame.

Well, apparently inverted bowls are a whole lot cheaper than a typical stadium design, so maybe they will move forward with this option

[Joborule]

Originally Posted by Tyler

Well, apparently inverted bowls are a whole lot cheaper than a typical stadium design, so maybe they will move forward with this option

Think Rossetti has the design rights for that though? Don't think HOK can straight up do that? Unless the Inverted Bowl is just the trademark name Rossetti own only.

Even still, I don't think Flames are going forward with that design because of how big of a risk it is to be the first to do something like that. It's a lot of money to invest, and it was a lengthy negotiation with the city to get their end of the funding. It's wise to go with the tired and true design, and you know for a certain you'll be getting your money's worth.

If the Inverted Bowl doesn't work as well as hoped for (which is very possible considering it'll be the first attempt), the design likely would be very difficult to retrofit and renovate off of; if it's even possible. And the costs in doing so to make it more functional to Flames need is may make the cost of the project as a whole a lot more than what's being invested already.

[bob-loblaw]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I agree with the notion of infrastructure investment during a downturn, but I think certain projects are better than others (preferably more costs for labour and local equipment). Build pipelines, energy corridors , repave highways (adding lanes where necessary), etc.


Things that would have seemed crazy to wonder about 35 days ago:

- whether global supply chain disruptions could cause significant delays in procuring certain supplies/equipment

- viability of pro sports model as we know it (we assume a vaccine is coming, but what if it takes longer than we expect? mutations? what about another pandemic? or a global recession/depression?)

- viability of the NHL (what if mass gatherings remain impossible in places like NYC, TOR, and MTL for a lot longer than we expect?)

- viability of the Flames in Alberta's possible economy

I'm not saying that these things are likely to happen, but I'm not sure either side should feel keen to throw $270M of chips into the middle until a return to normalcy [from a pro-sports context] seems inevitable.


I'll save my green line thoughts for its thread at somepoint, but TLDR: I'm as concerned about OPEX increases as CAPEX, and I don't think it's crazy to ask similar existential questions from a public transit standpoint. We'll always need to move people around the city, but will downtown be the same kind of 9-5 hub 5 days a week as it used to be? More reason to pursue the more flexible (and much cheaper) SE BRT option.

This is what I've thought all along.

I wonder if anyone from pro sports is putting social distancing into their business model yet. If it takes 18 months for a vaccine, who would want to be crammed with 18,000 people into an arena? Crowded seating, concessions and washroom? Not for me in the near future.

They should reconsider the entire design of the arena based on this. Bigger seats further apart? Shields between seats? More washrooms? No concourses and food delivery? More entrances/exits? Perhaps the model becomes more pay-per-view as a result.

I almost view it as spectator sports need to vastly reconsider their business models in a pandemic era. Athletes will have to take a huge shave in pay. All players are in physical contact with each other, sweating, breathing more, sitting on a bench, confined locker rooms, etc. How many times does the flu run through a team? Do teams want to risk their 'assets' with Covid-19 that is way more contagious than the flu?

Same goes for any events such as concerts in these facilities. Maybe the pandemic and the arena construction timing turns out to be a blessing in disguise.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

Let’s just scrap life as we know it. Everything. Jesus.

Its funny you mention Jesus because considering the current state of affairs of self-isolation he really shouldnt be leaving his Tomb tomorrow.