[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[stang]

Originally Posted by 868904

2) Hamilton’s Personality – I don’t care about the cross dressing,

Ok what????

[mrdonkey]

I have to scratch my head when people refer to Lindholm as a top 6 forward. He’s in that Backlund/Frolik zone of being a mediocre 2nd line/elite 3rd line player.

[rhino]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

Hamilton was left off team NA because Chiarelli was still salty about not getting him from Boston. He was miles better than anyone on that team.

He probably would have turned down the offer anyway

[devo22]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I have to scratch my head when people refer to Lindholm as a top 6 forward. He’s in that Backlund/Frolik zone of being a mediocre 2nd line/elite 3rd line player.

3rd in TOI, 5th in goals, 4th in assists. So yeah, he was without a doubt a top 6 forward in Carolina and should be in Calgary as well.

He's a 2nd liner with upside.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I have to scratch my head when people refer to Lindholm as a top 6 forward. He’s in that Backlund/Frolik zone of being a mediocre 2nd line/elite 3rd line player.

First of all, this is a woefully incomplete analysis. Backlund and Frolik are not the same calibre of player, not by a longshot.

Backlund is FIRMLY a second-line player if not better. This is a guy who was considered for the Selke last season and who can easily score 45-50 points in the NHL.

Frolik is as you describe him, a middle-six winger. I contend that last year was likely the worst we'll see from him due to injury and general roster turmoil and that he should return to his typical 35-45 points this season.

Lindholm, on the other hand, is neither of these things. Backlund is 29 while Frolik is one year older, 30. Meanwhile, Elias Lindholm is 23 and despite that came within one point of surpassing Backlund's point totals last season. This is a player who is still developing and who has untapped potential, who the Flames can feel good about putting with Monahan and Gaudreau. I wouldn't call him a middle-six player at all because odds are, in two or three years, he won't be.

[crapshoot]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I have to scratch my head when people refer to Lindholm as a top 6 forward. He’s in that Backlund/Frolik zone of being a mediocre 2nd line/elite 3rd line player.

You know what I have to scratch my head to? Comments like yours. The guy is 23 and is a very solid player already, so why would you think he's reached his ceiling? Also, you do realize that a mediocre 2nd liner is in fact a top 6 forward, don't you?

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by crapshoot

You know what I have to scratch my head to? Comments like yours. The guy is 23 and is a very solid player already, so why would you think he's reached his ceiling? Also, you do realize that a mediocre 2nd liner is in fact a top 6 forward, don't you?

A top 6 forward implies 1st/2nd line. The more accurate term would be middle six forward.

23 or not, he has enough history of not producing above that 40-50 point level that we can have a good idea of what kind of player he is. And he’s played with some pretty good players in Carolina; Aho and Teravainen are not terrible.

Maybe with Gaudreau and Monahan he hits 60 just by association. Which is fine, but it doesn’t change the fact that he’s not the solution to that top line and he won’t be hitting the goal totals to get this team into Stanley Cup territory. He’ll play top line RW because our depth at that position is just that bad. It doesn’t make him a top line RW.

[Royle9]

guys on the fan this morning basically confirmed that the reason the Flames went this route is because it got them both a "potential" franchise D man who's young and uncapped potential is yet to be see in Hanifin. But it also got them a top 6 RW/RHS who can also play center at the same time allowing us to fill our biggest need on the rightside.

They mentioned there were other offers the Flames received but most of them were 1 for 1 trades Dougie for a top 6 forward and the Flames didnt want to cripple their backend taking just 1 player.

Could be right, could be wrong - I think we'll still see a significant piece join the fold on the right side.

[FlamesNation23]

Originally Posted by Royle9

guys on the fan this morning basically confirmed that the reason the Flames went this route is because it got them both a "potential" franchise D man who's young and uncapped potential is yet to be see in Hanifin. But it also got them a top 6 RW/RHS who can also play center at the same time allowing us to fill our biggest need on the rightside.

They mentioned there were other offers the Flames received but most of them were 1 for 1 trades Dougie for a top 6 forward and the Flames didnt want to cripple their backend taking just 1 player.

Could be right, could be wrong - I think we'll still see a significant piece join the fold on the right side.

Thats what i thought. Tre didnt want to get a top 6 player while making the d much worse. I wonder who was offered in a 1 for 1 trade. Maybe ROR or stone?

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by FlamesNation23

Thats what i thought. Tre didnt want to get a top 6 player while making the d much worse. I wonder who was offered in a 1 for 1 trade. Maybe ROR or stone?

I think that is the right way to do it given the opportunity. Trading one for one, where you leave a hole just puts you in the cycle that is going up north.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Robbob

I think that is the right way to do it given the opportunity. Trading one for one, where you leave a hole just puts you in the cycle that is going up north.

Given the depth at D I think I have to politely disagree. If a deal like Hamilton for Stone was on the table you pull the trigger. The Flames have no one of that caliber on RW now or in the foreseeable future, so it would fill an organizational need. Bringing in a middle six forward and a 2nd pairing D marginally upgrades forward depth but we’ve already seen that Brodie/Stone is a perfectly adequate 2nd pairing, with tons of good D in the pipeline coming up. It wasn’t an area of pressing concern within the next 3 years.

I’ll wait and see what happens after free agency and over the summer before passing final judgment. For all we know Tre still has an ace up his sleeve like Kessel or Neal, which to me would come as a genuine shock but would at least address a need this team still faces.

Personally I’m expecting Grabner on July 1, with more of this organization’s patented “we hope this guy or that guy will step up and produce at an unprecedented level” rhetoric.

[RyZ]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

A top 6 forward implies 1st/2nd line. The more accurate term would be middle six forward.

45 points in 2018 places Lindholm clearly as a top 6 F. Backlund is in the same group.

6 "top 6" players per team and 31 teams means roughly the top 180 scoring F in the league are top 6 F. You are down to about 33 pts for a high end 3rd liner (180th scoring F). 52pts gets you into the top 90 (1st line). Lindholm and Backlund are far closer to being 1st liners than 3rd liners.

Clearly a very bare bones and simplified take on point production per line designation, but Lindholm and Backlund are 100% absolutely clear top 6 F in the NHL in 2018.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

...Maybe with Gaudreau and Monahan he hits 60 just by association. Which is fine, but it doesn’t change the fact that he’s not the solution to that top line and he won’t be hitting the goal totals to get this team into Stanley Cup territory. He’ll play top line RW because our depth at that position is just that bad. It doesn’t make him a top line RW.

Explain this to me: if Lindholm tallies 60-points on the first line, but while not “hitting the goal totals to get this team into Stanley Cup territory,” where are all those points coming from? If Lindholm scores 60-points this season it will mean that between him and his line mates the team has scored 60-goals. That’s a hell of a lot more production than we have ever seen from Michael Ferland.

If Lindholm scores 60 points this season this trade is immediately a huge win for the team.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by RyZ

45 points in 2018 places Lindholm clearly as a top 6 F. Backlund is in the same group.



6 "top 6" players per team and 31 teams means roughly the top 180 scoring F in the league are top 6 F. You are down to about 33 pts for a high end 3rd liner (180th scoring F). 52pts gets you into the top 90 (1st line). Lindholm and Backlund are far closer to being 1st liners than 3rd liners.



Clearly a very bare bones and simplified take on point production per line designation, but Lindholm and Backlund are 100% absolutely clear top 6 F in the NHL in 2018.

What this average neglects is that we’re looking to build a roster to battle for the Cup. We don’t care what Arizona or Carolina or Buffalo were rolling as top 6F, we care what Pittsburgh and Washington and Winnipeg were rolling and the Flames are still not even close. Maybe with a FA signing we get into the conversation with Vegas but that team honestly felt like lightning in a bottle, carried by otherworldly goaltending and an elite coach that Calgary doesn’t have. Doesn’t strike me as a model to try and emulate.

The bottom line is this team still needs a 30G/70-80pt forward to be considered a threat. I’m curious to see how or if this happens.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Given the depth at D I think I have to politely disagree. If a deal like Hamilton for Stone was on the table you pull the trigger. The Flames have no one of that caliber on RW now or in the foreseeable future, so it would fill an organizational need. Bringing in a middle six forward and a 2nd pairing D marginally upgrades forward depth but we’ve already seen that Brodie/Stone is a perfectly adequate 2nd pairing, with tons of good D in the pipeline coming up. It wasn’t an area of pressing concern within the next 3 years.

I’ll wait and see what happens after free agency and over the summer before passing final judgment. For all we know Tre still has an ace up his sleeve like Kessel or Neal, which to me would come as a genuine shock but would at least address a need this team still faces.

Personally I’m expecting Grabner on July 1, with more of this organization’s patented “we hope this guy or that guy will step up and produce at an unprecedented level” rhetoric.

I agree if you get value like Stone is return. Chances are that wasn't on the table. the two may come in as middle forward and 2nd pairing, but that is the floor. I think both players have a pretty decent chance to be more.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Explain this to me: if Lindholm tallies 60-points on the first line, but while not “hitting the goal totals to get this team into Stanley Cup territory,” where are all those points coming from? If Lindholm scores 60-points this season it will mean that between him and his line mates the team has scored 60-goals. That’s a hell of a lot more production than we have ever seen from Michael Ferland.

If Lindholm scores 60 points this season this trade is immediately a huge win for the team.

Well I think what poster is saying that 60 points in and of itself doesn't mean team is scoring more. Lindholm may not a be a big goal scorer so if these are secondary assists on goals Monahan is already scoring, I suppose you aren't adding anything.

But yeah, if Lindholm nets 60 points I suspect it means Flames are scoring a few more goals. Of course that is about 30% more than he has ever netted before.

Focusing only on points though isn't super comforting. Lindholm and Hamilton are about a wash on points, and Hanifin certainly has scored less than Ferland.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well I think what poster is saying that 60 points in and of itself doesn't mean team is scoring more. Lindholm may not a be a big goal scorer so if these are secondary assists on goals Monahan is already scoring, I suppose you aren't adding anything.



But yeah, if Lindholm nets 60 points I suspect it means Flames are scoring a few more goals. Of course that is about 30% more than he has ever netted before.



Focusing only on points though isn't super comforting. Lindholm and Hamilton are about a wash on points, and Hanifin certainly has scored less than Ferland.

But this focus on points also neglects the Monahan + Gaudreau factor. Swapping Ferland out—a player who ONCE scored 20/40 while playing on the top line—for a player who has done it consistently with lesser players is definitely a big upgrade.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

But this focus on points also neglects the Monahan + Gaudreau factor. Swapping Ferland out—a player who ONCE scored 20/40 while playing on the top line—for a player who has done it consistently with lesser players is definitely a big upgrade.

The question I want to pose is how much better are Gaudreau/Monahan than Aho/Teravainen? Enough to expect a 30% increase in production?

I won’t rule it out but I also don’t expect it.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

...The bottom line is this team still needs a 30G/70-80pt forward to be considered a threat. I’m curious to see how or if this happens.

How about Matthew Tkachuk?

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

But this focus on points also neglects the Monahan + Gaudreau factor. Swapping Ferland out—a player who ONCE scored 20/40 while playing on the top line—for a player who has done it consistently with lesser players is definitely a big upgrade.

I also like the fact that Lindholm is said to excell at zone entries and is an excellent passer with high hockey IQ.