Alberta Politics Thread

[V]

I'm just regurgitating other people's work here, with no knowledge of the source, but this reflected my uneducated opinion, so I'm posting it.

http://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.cfm?id=19191

[CaptainCrunch]

If you want to do this as a world leader then you do it from an environmental protectionist policy.

You set a higher standard in Canada, and then hammer the crap out of goods imported from other countries that don't live up to your standards.

Sorry Ontario and Quebec, you can keep buying foreign oil from Saudi Arabia or the States or whatever but we're adding a $50.00 per barrel cost to it because they don't live up to the standards of energy produced here.

Sorry China we have to add an $8.00 per good environmental tax to your exports to Canada because you don't live up to our standards in terms of air quality.

Its fine to say that your a world leader, but there's no incentive for anyone to follow you.

of course at the end of the day, the Chinese would say f you, and increase their already really punative import numbers, and a trade war with the States would be interesting to say the least.

But the only reason why being a world leader would be worth while is if you used that as a stick economically.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Working to reduce our carbon footprint is certainly a good thing if done in an economically sustainable way.

Wanting to do so because you think Canada can set an example for the rest of the world is hilariously misguided. China, India, Russia and the US wouldn't care and they wouldn't notice.

Well said. You cant just up and say one day: "thats it for carbon-based energy! We're only using solar power now!"

You cant force this issue, its something that has to be steered in the right direction and allowed to develop organically over time.

This is just a ham-fisted attempt at gouging consumers. The cartoon was spot on, these people dont give a rat's ass about the environment they just wanted a politically-pleasing source of tax revenue.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by MattyC

It doesn't have to have an impact on any other nation to be a good thing to do, that's my whole point. If others follow an example great. It's completely beside the point that we all have to do it. It's not the reason to do it, just maybe possibly a positive side effect. How does bitching that others are worse help anything at all?

Everyone wants to do the right thing.

But Canada is going about it all wrong, causing economic hardship on itself (loss of jobs, etc), which would be fine if we actually accomplished the goal.

However, when the other, larger nations are not doing anything about it, our efforts are essentially in vein.

And with that being the case, the economic hardship is punitive without results.

That is why many of us argue that we should be less economically self-destructive about it.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Everyone wants to do the right thing.

But Canada is going about it all wrong, causing economic hardship on itself (loss of jobs, etc), which would be fine if we actually accomplished the goal.

However, when the other, larger nations are not doing anything about it, our efforts are essentially in vein.

And with that being the case, the economic hardship is punitive without results.

That is why many of us argue that we should be less economically self-destructive about it.

Any shift away from oil, whether by Canada alone, or by the world at large, is going to be economically detrimental to Canada, and specifically Alberta, in it's current state. If you are a person who believes this shift is going to happen (for energy generation in particular) regardless of what Canada does, what can we do other than starting as soon as possible to look at alternatives for our own economy? If you're taking a long view at this, the economic impacts on Canada would be much worse if we just let it happen to us rather than try and adapt ourselves as quickly as possible, before the situation becomes worse. Right now, this is a recession, and it will bounce back. But when there are real shifts in how people produce and consume energy, it's not going to have a bounce back. It will be slowly minimized, and if Canada doesn't adjust before that happens, so will our economy.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Any shift away from oil, whether by Canada alone, or by the world at large, is going to be economically detrimental to Canada, and specifically Alberta, in it's current state. If you are a person who believes this shift is going to happen (for energy generation in particular) regardless of what Canada does, what can we do other than starting as soon as possible to look at alternatives for our own economy? If you're taking a long view at this, the economic impacts on Canada would be much worse if we just let it happen to us rather than try and adapt ourselves as quickly as possible, before the situation becomes worse. Right now, this is a recession, and it will bounce back. But when there are real shifts in how people produce and consume energy, it's not going to have a bounce back. It will be slowly minimized, and if Canada doesn't adjust before that happens, so will our economy.

The shift from oil will take decades.

The amount of oil consumed, and the rate of said change, will not change materially, regardless of Canada's actions.

Not building the pipeline is an example of getting in our own way and causing punitive repercussions, without changing the amount of oil consumed at all.

Better for Canada to get our oil out of the ground and use the profits to invest in the future than to sit around talking about how awesome we are while the rest of the world carries on and laughs at us.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by MattyC

The point is you can't tell ANYONE in the bar to stop smoking if you still are. Even if you smoke 1 cigarette in the time that they smoke 20, you're contributing and it all needs to stop. You can stop and tell others too, and they may listen or they may not, but at least you can say you're doing what you can.

You've altered your lifestyle by being the one to quit smoking but you're still in the bar breathing in second hand smoke from the other 24 smokers and now you're not enjoying your cigarette but still suffering the consequence of other people's behaviour. You've done nothing to improve your health or the air quality in the bar.

But at least you can tell others in the bar, "I quit smoking".

How would you feel if a doctor walked into the bar and focused on you and nobody else and told you that you have to quit smoking cause the air in the bar is unbreathable. That same doctor does nothing about the other smokers.

[accord1999]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Better for Canada to get our oil out of the ground and use the profits to invest in the future than to sit around talking about how awesome we are while the rest of the world carries on and laughs at us.

Yeah, make money from oil and let all the other suckers governments subsidize developments until a cost effective replacement for fossil fuels does emerge. At that point Canada can invest and gain a considerable advantage over the countries who invested in less efficient forms or the losing form of future energy generation and are now stuck with that anchor, much like Germany and its useless 40 GW of solar.

[puckedoff]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

You've altered your lifestyle by being the one to quite smoking but you're still in the bar breathing in second hand smoke from the other 24 smokers and now you're not enjoying your cigarette but still suffering the consequence of other people's behaviour. You've done nothing to improve your health or the air quality in the bar.

But at least you can tell others in the bar, "I quit smoking".

How would you feel if a doctor walked into the bar and focused on you and nobody else and told you that you have to quit smoking cause the air in the bar is unbreathable.

Its actually worse because the bar has a quota, demanding that 92 cigarettes get smoked each night. So when you decide not to smoke your three, Bricky, (who smokes his unfiltered) makes up the difference and smokes three more, and the air quality is worse for it.

[CaptainCrunch]

Not only that but he's selling cigarettes to everyone that wants to buy them and making a nice profit

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

http://aqicn.org/city/canada/alberta/calgary-central-2/
Zoom out on the map, and pan on over to China.

Kinda makes me wonder if we really want to address this, maybe we should be adding a pollution surcharge on imports to dirty nations with no environmental restrictions. Price their goods accordingly. This would drive manufacturing jobs to countries like Canada and even the international playing field. Our current policies only handicap us to compete, when China has free reign to nuke the environment.

Woah,

Calgary 43 and Beijing 240. Five times as bad as downtown calgary.

A resident of china who just got back told me the're seeing more and more cancer cases in china. I'm guessing cases of asthma are on the rise as well. He said China's government burns the cheapest coal which causes more pollution.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Woah,

Calgary 43 and Beijing 240. Five times as bad as downtown calgary.

A resident of china who just got back told me the're seeing more and more cancer cases in china. I'm guessing cases of asthma are on the rise as well. He said China's government burns the cheapest coal which causes more pollution.

That is the sort of thing that will actually cause change... the increased medical costs will eventually make it worthwhile for them to stop burning all that coal (hopefully).

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

http://aqicn.org/city/canada/alberta/calgary-central-2/
Zoom out on the map, and pan on over to China.

Kinda makes me wonder if we really want to address this, maybe we should be adding a pollution surcharge on imports to dirty nations with no environmental restrictions. Price their goods accordingly. This would drive manufacturing jobs to countries like Canada and even the international playing field. Our current policies only handicap us to compete, when China has free reign to nuke the environment.

This is similar to my thoughts however I think it results in trade wars pretty quickly.

Basicly Canada should charge a tax on pollution of all kinds for all goods consumed in this country. So whether it is produced in Canada or abroad a fee should be collected for the full lifecycle costs of the items.

Anything exported from Canada would be exempt from any of these taxes unless the jurisdiction the good was sold to had a similar system.

This way we as the consumer of the products pay for our impact to the Earth but we don't sabotage our export markets because we are trying to compete on an environmentally sustainable basis with countries that aren't.

Essentially the motto should change from the polluter pays to the end user of the good pays. And since Canada only affect the consumption of its citizens then that is what it should be trying to change.

[Fuzz]

Ya, I wonder if that would lead to a 2 tiered world, where all the "good" countries take care of things, and the "bad" ones raz the earth and trade amoungst themselves.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Any shift away from oil, whether by Canada alone, or by the world at large, is going to be economically detrimental to Canada, and specifically Alberta, in it's current state. If you are a person who believes this shift is going to happen (for energy generation in particular) regardless of what Canada does, what can we do other than starting as soon as possible to look at alternatives for our own economy? If you're taking a long view at this, the economic impacts on Canada would be much worse if we just let it happen to us rather than try and adapt ourselves as quickly as possible, before the situation becomes worse. Right now, this is a recession, and it will bounce back. But when there are real shifts in how people produce and consume energy, it's not going to have a bounce back. It will be slowly minimized, and if Canada doesn't adjust before that happens, so will our economy.

You are aware that developing alternatives does not require undermining your own economy at the same time, right?

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You are aware that developing alternatives does should not require undermining your own economy at the same time, right?

fyp

It actually does undermine it now, the way the governments are doing it in Canada.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You are aware that developing alternatives does not require undermining your own economy at the same time, right?

You know what, beside the fact that we're going about it the wrong way, I'm not sure that's true. At least not at the pace that, IMO, we need to be doing it.

Our economy is based on this resource, our citizens are largely educated around it and, as we see from closures of businesses, even unrelated industries are effected by it. This resource is tied directly to our economy like very few other places really. Any significant move away from it, without alternatives (not alternative fuel sources, alternative industries which to build around) in place, will almost certainly have pretty devasting effects, in Alberta specifically, but in Canada overall as well.

Which is entirely my point. We should be the ones driving the change. We should be developing the industries that will eventually replace our own. Why wouldn't we do that?

The problem is that times are so rough right now solely based on the devaluing of oil, that it's really a difficult thing to talk about. If we were discussing it 5 years ago, it would probably be a lot more cordial. But today the idea of purposely shifting our energy (and industry) to alternatives seems ludicrous given the current climate. I agree we go about it the wrong way and that what the Government is doing right now is not in the best interest of the short term for Alberta (which we should all be concerned about). But there seems to be a whole lot of people not even willing to entertain the notion. Like it's an impossibility.

What's going on government wise in AB is really just very poor timing. Citizens wanting change in government, a foreign competitor decimating our economy/industries, and bringing about tax increases to justify spending that would have been able to be done in other ways had it been done in a time of prosperity. They should have held off on all this 'socialist' business until things became more stable. I think we can all agree on that.

[Fuzz]

It's not just poor timing though. It's poor implementation.

[Coach]

Absolutely.

[transplant99]

Naivete and utopian ideals have zero place in reality....except in Canada apparently.