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[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

You’re going to have to excuse me while I call bull#### on protecting nature in a country the size of Canada as to why we can’t develop new places.

Sorry, I think there is space. It’s actually a ludicrous argument, really.

You know how we drive for hours on end going over 100kph and barely make a dent on track across the country? Yeah, there’s some room out there to build new places. It’s quintessential NIMBYism. It’s also what’s wrong with Canadians current view at large with hating anything and everything to do with any development, and in the long run will only make quality of life worse for Canadians (and immigrants).

Totally

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

It's really not. Go to the mountains and then imagine all the negative impacts on animals with 3x as many people traipsing around. For starters you'd need more highway lanes, more vehicles cause more negative interactions. Most places in the parks are already overcrowded. Add in increased train transport and it becomes a major barrier to wildlife movement.

I've already mentioned water stresses, which are not bull#### at all, go do some reading on that. Scientists have been sounding alarm bells on that for years.

Then you have increased resource demand, much more land for solar and wind, let alone more gas for electricity, more waste generation and on and on.

All you have to do is travel this province with an eye to our affect on the environment and you aren't going to notice many places undisturbed.

Fuzz, there is an insane amount of land in Canada. We can even expand in many areas without any impacts to current National Parks or mountain territory. The truth is that many people simply don’t want to go live in colder areas or other less beautiful areas, to which there are plenty but no infrastructure properly built out. There’s nothing stopping Canada from trying to align its immigration policies with the likes of exploring the idea of developing less developed regions (to which there are literally thousands upon thousands of square kilometres).

[Fuzz]

Sure, if you ignore all the warnings from ecologists and the increased resource consumption of more people.

[nik-]

I think the morality stance on this should be from the perspective that we're basically just bilking all these immigrants. The majority need money to come here and we're basically just taking it all through degree mills or cost of housing while working #### jobs.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think the morality stance on this should be from the perspective that we're basically just bilking all these immigrants. The majority need money to come here and we're basically just taking it all through degree mills or cost of housing while working #### jobs.

And really what is wrong with that?

It fills a strategic need for Canada. The people want to come here to work and live here. If they didn't want to come here, they wouldn't. Nobody is saying these people can't enter into schools or make life better for them or their offspring once here and improve their lot in life either. And if Canadians are so worried about this "ethical dilemma", well knock yourself out, go work at Tim Horton's?

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Sure, if you ignore all the warnings from ecologists and the increased resource consumption of more people.

But again.. These people are consuming things where they live now.

[Bonded]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Fuzz, there is an insane amount of land in Canada. We can even expand in many areas without any impacts to current National Parks or mountain territory. The truth is that many people simply don’t want to go live in colder areas or other less beautiful areas, to which there are plenty but no infrastructure properly built out. There’s nothing stopping Canada from trying to align its immigration policies with the likes of exploring the idea of developing less developed regions (to which there are literally thousands upon thousands of square kilometres).

They basically already did with the reserves. Go live where no else wants to and where economic prospects are bleak.
What’s the plan? Force new immigrants to Saskatchewan and Northern Alberta and hope industry springs up around them?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

And really what is wrong with that?

It fills a strategic need for Canada. The people want to come here to work and live here. If they didn't want to come here, they wouldn't.

Personally I think it's morally abhorrent. We sell them on a dream and in reality it's just fuel for assets and corporations who don't want to pay real salaries.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

But again.. These people are consuming things where they live now.

And their consumption increases here(for the most part).

[Johnny199r]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think the morality stance on this should be from the perspective that we're basically just bilking all these immigrants. The majority need money to come here and we're basically just taking it all through degree mills or cost of housing while working #### jobs.

Our exploitation of foreign students is the worst.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Johnny199r

Our exploitation of foreign students is the worst.

It's an embarrassment.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by nik-

Personally I think it's morally abhorrent. We sell them on a dream and in reality it's just fuel for assets and corporations who don't want to pay real salaries.

And why are they doing it then?

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Bonded

They basically already did with the reserves. Go live where no else wants to and where economic prospects are bleak.
What’s the plan? Force new immigrants to Saskatchewan and Northern Alberta and hope industry springs up around them?

I'm just responding to the notion that there's "nowhere to build". To a degree, if you build nice places to live, people will move there IMO. You can start to generate some economic potential in places other than 4 cities in Canada... lol

Like... come on. Again it's just that nobody is willing to move there. Lots of places desperate for people and workers. Have a gander at Prince Rupert, Fort Mac, Saskatoon, Grand Prairie, Fort Nelson. All these places need people. Small towns are desperate for good health care workers and educators. And all that is just western Canada, recall that there are like 7 other provinces too and then the territories we are massively underdeveloping from a resource potential.

Canada's potential is gigantic, Canadians just can't get out of their own way, that's all.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

And why are they doing it then?

Getting duped.

But even if it's a step up in lifestyle, it doesn't change the fact that we're straight up exploiting them. Both of those states can exist.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Like... come on. Again it's just that nobody is willing to move there. Lots of places desperate for people and workers. Have a gander at Prince Rupert, Fort Mac, Saskatoon, Grand Prairie, Fort Nelson. All these places need people. Small towns are desperate for good health care workers and educators. And all that is just western Canada, recall that there are like 7 other provinces too and then the territories we are massively underdeveloping from a resource potential.

Canada's potential is gigantic, Canadians just can't get out of their own way, that's all.

Sure, but aren't people essentially voting with their feet? By and large, it seems like people would rather live more modestly in a city than live more comfortably in a small town and I'm not sure how you really overcome that.

And not to stereotype too much, but I don't think more isolated small centres are necessarily the most inviting places for new immigrants.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by nik-

Getting duped.

But even if it's a step up in lifestyle, it doesn't change the fact that we're straight up exploiting them. Both of those states can exist.

I don't know if I really agree these people are even being exploited. They have freedom of choice and movement and there are enough different industries and companies and businesses that hire low skilled workers that if the demand for higher salaries was there, it would be filled. It could be that there are just that many people willing to work these jobs and fill these roles that that is the market rate. If they are not happy to do that, these companies would struggle to find workers, wouldn't they?

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Sure, but aren't people essentially voting with their feet? By and large, it seems like people would rather live more modestly in a city than live more comfortably in a small town and I'm not sure how you really overcome that.

And not to stereotype too much, but I don't think more isolated small centres are necessarily the most inviting places for new immigrants.

No I 100% agree, but that is kind of my point. Isn't it then incumbent on national strategy at federal and provincial government level to try and figure out how to spread out people to other areas to better manage population growth and infrastructure?

Further, aren't you thinking about what places are like now and not what I'm saying- the future or what they could be? My point is you build out these other centres and make them larger, nicer, more things to do, nicer places to live, better infrastructure, etc. Then people will move with their feet.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

I don't know if I really agree these people are even being exploited. They have freedom of choice and movement and there are enough different industries and companies and businesses that hire low skilled workers that if the demand for higher salaries was there, it would be filled. It could be that there are just that many people willing to work these jobs and fill these roles that that is the market rate. If they are not happy to do that, these companies would struggle to find workers, wouldn't they?

Not when you're adding another 500k a year. There's always more meat for the grinder.

[flamesfever]

Maybe at this point in time, as we are unable to adequately house the immigrants, we should temporarily slow down or halt the number of them coming into the country. Exceptions could be made to help the people escaping the situations in Ukraine and Afghanistan, along with allowing the immigration of people to fill the more critical holes in our work force.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

Maybe at this point in time, as we are unable to adequately house the immigrants, we should temporarily slow down or halt the number of them coming into the country. Exceptions could be made to help the people escaping the situations in Ukraine and Afghanistan, along with allowing the immigration of people to fill the more critical holes in our work force.

People aren't going to build housing/condos/apartments for some possible future population. They need people here so they build them. If you pause bringing in people so the market catching up - its going to stop building at the same rate.