Alberta Politics Thread

[Coach]

Why do we have to wait for the larger culprits to figure it out before we do?

It's a pretty common theme to say that Canada is only a small fraction of emissions, which it of course is. But I just don't understand why that means we shouldn't be doing what we can to reduce this stuff. The entire globe has to cut back, what makes us different?

It's like getting a speeding ticket for going 10 over, when the guy in front of you was going 30 over. Sure, they should be catching them too, but you were still speeding.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Why do we have to wait for the larger culprits to figure it out before we do?

It's a pretty common theme to say that Canada is only a small fraction of emissions, which it of course is. But I just don't understand why that means we shouldn't be doing what we can to reduce this stuff. The entire globe has to cut back, what makes us different?

It's like getting a speeding ticket for going 10 over, when the guy in front of you was going 30 over. Sure, they should be catching them too, but you were still speeding.

I tend to agree, but in your analogy, China doesn't have a speed limit, so it can go however fast it wants, while you are paying for your ticket.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Fighting Banana Slug

I tend to agree, but in your analogy, China doesn't have a speed limit, so it can go however fast it wants, while you are paying for your ticket.

Well it's more an analogy about the futility of complaining about people doing worse and getting away with it. The cop is giving you that ticket, regardless of how much faster China is driving.

Personally, I would like Canada to be a leader on this front. That, IMO, is what being a world leader is about. Regardless of our actual impact, it all needs to go down. Why can't we be one of the nations on the side of progress?

Maybe a better analogy would be the kid who doesn't get sweet cereal complaining that his friends can eat as much Lucky Charms as they want. So what? You still shouldn't eat them. Maybe the kid can explain to his friend why Lucky Charms are terrible.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Well it's more an analogy about the futility of complaining about people doing worse and getting away with it. The cop is giving you that ticket, regardless of how much faster China is driving.

Personally, I would like Canada to be a leader on this front. That, IMO, is what being a world leader is about. Regardless of our actual impact, it all needs to go down. Why can't we be one of the nations on the side of progress?

Maybe a better analogy would be the kid who doesn't get sweet cereal complaining that his friends can eat as much Lucky Charms as they want. So what? You still shouldn't eat them. Maybe the kid can explain to his friend why Lucky Charms are terrible.

Because if we're truly concerned about damage being done to the planet then we need to focus on where the problem really lies. All we do in Canada is make a 0.1% change and feel really good about ourselves that we're really helping the planet.

You can tell 2 people in a bar to stop smoking but what's the point when there's 24 others that will continue doing it and are increasing the amount they smoke.

If we really care about climate change and the planet then do something about it instead of feeling good about ourselves cause we have a carbon tax and a green bin now.

To answer your point, yes, who cares about the people going 2km/h over the speed limit when there's people going 24km/h over.

I don't believe china will follow our example but they may skew the numbers a little more.

[GomerPile]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Maybe the kid can explain to his friend why Lucky Charms are terrible.

I was right with you until this point.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Why do we have to wait for the larger culprits to figure it out before we do?

It's a pretty common theme to say that Canada is only a small fraction of emissions, which it of course is. But I just don't understand why that means we shouldn't be doing what we can to reduce this stuff. The entire globe has to cut back, what makes us different?

It's like getting a speeding ticket for going 10 over, when the guy in front of you was going 30 over. Sure, they should be catching them too, but you were still speeding.

I don't think anyone's really against doing anything, they're just completely annoyed at two things;

1. That the taxes/initiatives are really about the environment.

2. That Canada gets unfairly targeted by the US, with the States basically saying "Hey everyone, this world needs to change and it needs to change now.....so everyone look at Canada and condemn them, while hopefully destroying their economy, while we sit down here continuing to attempt to strengthen our economy by not giving a single **** about the environment, despite being one of the top polluters in the world".

Per Capita! Tar Sands! Canada! Anything that isn't us!

Yes, we could change in a major way starting tomorrow, Matty, but the harsh reality is Canada is a hugely energy based economy and you might be surprised how quickly we fall from grace as a country to be environmental leaders in this world. And all that to just be a token, barely discernable achievement for the world in terms of saving the environment.

[stampsx2]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Well it's more an analogy about the futility of complaining about people doing worse and getting away with it. The cop is giving you that ticket, regardless of how much faster China is driving.

Personally, I would like Canada to be a leader on this front. That, IMO, is what being a world leader is about. Regardless of our actual impact, it all needs to go down. Why can't we be one of the nations on the side of progress?

Maybe a better analogy would be the kid who doesn't get sweet cereal complaining that his friends can eat as much Lucky Charms as they want. So what? You still shouldn't eat them. Maybe the kid can explain to his friend why Lucky Charms are terrible.

Why doesn't China have recycling bins? We've had them for years and been an example.

[Flash Walken]

Luddite talk to think forcing our economy to be more efficient with energy resources will hamper the economy in the long term.

[northcrunk]

If anyone really thinks China shouldn't clean up their act and they aren't the single worst polluter in the world have a look at these pictures from China:

http://www.boredpanda.com/pollution-china/

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Who in the blue hell says we're not doing anything? Even before Rachel and her crew of merry morons got into power there were discussions and actions based around reducing emissions and cleaning up things like the processes used in Oil Sands.

And as much as its not true, putting in a carbon tax designed as it is by the NDP government has little to nothing to do with emissions reduction, and everything to do with grabbing revenue that the NDP can sock in general revenue and piss away.

And being as this is the AB politics thread thread, the pertinent part of any emissions discussion, as it relates to thread title, is bolded above.
Had they followed Quebec's lead, where all revenues collected from carbon tax are earmarked for energy efficiency initiatives, that would have been good. Investing the tax to develop alternatives to current usage/practice/technology even better.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by stampsx2

Because if we're truly concerned about damage being done to the planet then we need to focus on where the problem really lies. All we do in Canada is make a 0.1% change and feel really good about ourselves that we're really helping the planet.

You can tell 2 people in a bar to stop smoking but what's the point when there's 24 others that will continue doing it and are increasing the amount they smoke.

If we really care about climate change and the planet then do something about it instead of feeling good about ourselves cause we have a carbon tax and a green bin now.

To answer your point, yes, who cares about the people going 2km/h over the speed limit when there's people going 24km/h over.

I don't believe china will follow our example but they may skew the numbers a little more.

The point is you can't tell ANYONE in the bar to stop smoking if you still are. Even if you smoke 1 cigarette in the time that they smoke 20, you're contributing and it all needs to stop. You can stop and tell others too, and they may listen or they may not, but at least you can say you're doing what you can.

China (and India)'s whole thing is about how we in the West have enjoyed these comforts at the expense of the environment for generations, whereas they are just catching up now. They feel they deserve their time with industrialization and 1st World comforts. When we are just realizing now the detriment that our lifestyles has had over this time. IMO, it's up to us (and the US, and the UK, and and and) to show that we can live in similar comfort more sustainably. We have to have the guts to actually pursue these things or no one will.

And no, I'm not suggesting that the world follows Canada's example, or will, but we have no excuse to tell them to slow down if we aren't. No leg to stand on to tell them to convert to renewables when we aren't. "Be the change you want to see in the world."

If we really care about climate change, we will do what we can, regardless of how small the effect may be. It will still be an effect, and it will be one we have to tackle whether we wait for China or not. Why wait? Because our economy largely revolves around oil? The world will still use oil. Maybe we can alter our economy to revolve around some more things.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

If anyone really thinks China shouldn't clean up their act and they aren't the single worst polluter in the world have a look at these pictures from China:

http://www.boredpanda.com/pollution-china/

http://aqicn.org/city/canada/alberta/calgary-central-2/
Zoom out on the map, and pan on over to China.

Kinda makes me wonder if we really want to address this, maybe we should be adding a pollution surcharge on imports to dirty nations with no environmental restrictions. Price their goods accordingly. This would drive manufacturing jobs to countries like Canada and even the international playing field. Our current policies only handicap us to compete, when China has free reign to nuke the environment.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by jayswin

I don't think anyone's really against doing anything, they're just completely annoyed at two things;

1. That the taxes/initiatives are really about the environment.

2. That Canada gets unfairly targeted by the US, with the States basically saying "Hey everyone, this world needs to change and it needs to change now.....so everyone look at Canada and condemn them, while hopefully destroying their economy, while we sit down here continuing to attempt to strengthen our economy by not giving a single **** about the environment, despite being one of the top polluters in the world".

Per Capita! Tar Sands! Canada! Anything that isn't us!

Yes, we could change in a major way starting tomorrow, Matty, but the harsh reality is Canada is a hugely energy based economy and you might be surprised how quickly we fall from grace as a country to be environmental leaders in this world. And all that to just be a token, barely discernable achievement for the world in terms of saving the environment.

The bottom line to me is being a world leader in something like this is empty unless one of the major powers actually leads the way.

Basically if we make radical changes and shut down segments of our economy, countries like China, the US India and Russia aren't going to stand up and applaud while shaking their heads with a tear of gratitude running down their cheeks. They're going to economically exploit it.

We've seen it with the Americans especially in Energy, the US under Obama are the biggest environmental hypocrites on the planet. Oh no Keystone pipeline because pipelines are environmentally dangerous and green house inefficient, (Build Pipelines lots and lots of pipelines boys, and lets up the sales of oil and Gas to Eastern Canada). And those tar sands, those nasty tar sands destroying the atmosphere, but whatever you do don't look at the California Oil fields that make the Oil Sands look like Banff.

Nobody is going to follow Canada because we're leading the way, nobody is going to do more business with us because we're leading the way. They'll say nice things, and find other levers to improve their economy at the expense of ours.

And China, I wouldn't believe their emissions numbers anyways, they're more crooked then a mafia accountant and cook books faster then Gordon Ramsey can put together a happy meal.

should we do stuff? Absolutely, but not for the reasons that most people talk about. We should do it because its the right thing to do and it encompasses far more then just carbon emissions. Lets talk about Air and Water Quality and toxicity in the ground. But instead of doing the popular which is "Lets tax people and hope that punishment is a proper incentive", lets find a proper way to incentivize. Lets find a way to reward a oil company for coming up with cleaner extraction, lets give bigger tax breaks to companies that successfully create more environmentally friendly products so they can sell their goods for a bit less making it affordable for everyone to use, so they can sell more and thus increase our tax base.

In conclusion, stop doing stupid stuff, and relying on buzz words like World Leader and Carbon Tax and Cap and trade, and actually think outside of the box on ideas that don't beat the crap out of lower income families and small businesses, and expand the tax base instead of the tax rate.

But standing up and beating your chest and saying hey look at us, we're a world leader when nobody else is going to do anything but talk about it and take advantage of your plan, that's just dumb.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by MattyC

...
It's like getting a speeding ticket for going 10 over, when the guy in front of you was going 30 over. Sure, they should be catching them too, but you were still speeding.

False. "They" should absolutely catch the 30-over driver, first, because, presumably, his driving has more dangerous consequences. You could make a better argument by saying that if China's rape and murder rate were 20%, would we not have to fight Canada's 1% rape and murder rate without comparing how small it is relative to China's? But that would be a superficial argument as well, because you'd be comparing a universally recognized crimes with universally established/accepted practices.

Who'd be "they" though? For example, UN can threaten to call for embargo everything produced in China, India and Russia until they correct their most dangerous environmental pollution levels caused by manufacturing and consumption to some hypothetically and scientifically proven acceptable levels. That could work very efficiently and force the worst offenders to clean up their act at their own cost. But each one of these worst offenders can veto pretty much any UN resolution. So, UN cannot be "they". If not UN, then who? It HAS to be a globally agreed outcome effort. Unconditionally attacking environmental pollution issues locally as opposed to globally is fundamentally unfair to Canada and Canadians.

Instead, our own provincial and federal governments make our own industries less competitive internationally, while making the worst offenders' industries more competitive economically. To be fair, this is not only Canada, of course. Germany and Scandinavian countries are doing it the same way, if not worse...

[northcrunk]

China and India's pollution problems are not because the west enjoyed a free period of development. The UK ruled India for 400 years and they did plenty of development. India's issue comes because of misuse of the ganges river. China just doesn't care and will dump stuff anywhere.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Personally, I would like Canada to be a leader on this front. That, IMO, is what being a world leader is about. Regardless of our actual impact, it all needs to go down. Why can't we be one of the nations on the side of progress?

Because you have a naive world view that thinks that there is a such thing as world leader that other countries will follow. Fundamentally, the leaders of China don't give a #### about what the leaders of Canada are legislating.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Handsome B. Wonderful

Because you have a naive world view that thinks that there is a such thing as world leader that other countries will follow. Fundamentally, the leaders of China don't give a #### about what the leaders of Canada are legislating.

Well I guess we'll just keep going and everyone can keep pointing the finger at everyone else.

That's a sure fire recipe for progress right there.

[V]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

I've defended my point about as much as this debate warrants it. If you think the price of something has no impact on the consumption and then back it up with laughably bad analysis then I'll give your argument the defense it deserves which is derision and ostracism.

Have you really? Because I've probably missed it, but I would be very interested in a substantial study on the price elasticity of gas. It seems to me that it's incredibly inelastic, but I haven't looked at a ton of data. If you've put in the work, please share.

I will reiterate my argument: We can argue the relative effectiveness of the tax to lower gasoline demand but to claim all it is is a cash grab that will have no impact is both ignorant and false.

I think that the point is, and I might be wrong, that if the money being charged for this gas tax was actually used for environmental purposes, it could actually be useful. But as it stands right now, it's just a chance for the NDP to spend more money. So instead of two potential positive outcomes (lower gas consumption and higher spending on environmental mitigation) we only get the former and not the latter. And the argument is that the former is much, much weaker than the latter.

[Resolute 14]

Working to reduce our carbon footprint is certainly a good thing if done in an economically sustainable way.

Wanting to do so because you think Canada can set an example for the rest of the world is hilariously misguided. China, India, Russia and the US wouldn't care and they wouldn't notice.

[Coach]

It doesn't have to have an impact on any other nation to be a good thing to do, that's my whole point. If others follow an example great. It's completely beside the point that we all have to do it. It's not the reason to do it, just maybe possibly a positive side effect. How does bitching that others are worse help anything at all?