Ongoing Calgarians complaining about pedestrian bridges thread

[BlackArcher101]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

I guess what I am trying to say here is that I know at least a hand full of people that could have spent the time to enter interesting conceptual designs but recognized it as the waste of time it would be.

Why would it have been a waste of time? Because they weren't being paid to submit their proposal?

[RogerWilco]

Do you enjoy working for free? Can you feed your family when you work for free?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

Do you enjoy working for free? Can you feed your family when you work for free?

I can't think of any industry where a company/individual gets paid to submit a quote or respond to an RFP. How could anybody put out an RFP or request a quote if they had to pay everybody who responded? I don't even get what you're whining about...you sound kind of ridiculous.

[RogerWilco]

[QUOTE=Sliver;3457503]I can't think of any industry where a company/individual gets paid to submit a quote or respond to an RFP. How could anybody put out an RFP or request a quote if they had to pay everybody who responded? I don't even get what you're whining about...you sound kind of ridiculous.[/

NM

[RogerWilco]

NM, after that comment I now realize that the people I am arguing with here are not involved in the industry and don't have the faintest clue as to what they are talking about.

A competition isn't even remotely close to a RFP. I will move on now. Arm chair architects to annoying to deal with.

[nik-]

Well at least I designed and engineered my arm chair.

[psicodude]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

NM, after that comment I now realize that the people I am arguing with here are not involved in the industry and don't have the faintest clue as to what they are talking about.

A competition isn't even remotely close to a RFP. I will move on now. Arm chair architects to annoying to deal with.

A bunch of people respond with proposal's that try to meet a specific list of requirements, and only the proposal scored the highest wins. Dude, the only real difference is that RFP's are usually very specific and competitions are more broad.

The point you are missing is that in both instances, everyone other than the winner is working for free in the hopes of being selected.

[RatherDashing]

Originally Posted by worth

What do you mean "you people"?

What do YOU mean, "you people"?

[worth]

Blacks

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by psicodude

A bunch of people respond with proposal's that try to meet a specific list of requirements, and only the proposal scored the highest wins. Dude, the only real difference is that RFP's are usually very specific and competitions are more broad.

The point you are missing is that in both instances, everyone other than the winner is working for free in the hopes of being selected.

There is a tremendous time difference between the two. When responding to an RFP no creative design work can legally be presented to the prospective client. When free creative work is presented it must be in accordance with a design competition approved by council. Please read the attached if you are interested in understanding the difference .

http://www.aaa.ab.ca/imis15/CMDownlo...5-b8655e54680a

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by You Need a Thneed

I think you'll have trouble finding people who are capable of making a feasible design that don't have some kind of architecture or engineering background.

Calatrava is both an architect and a structural engineer, and the ability to do both sides of the design work is part of what makes him great.


The AAAs warning didn't stop the vast majority of the entry's to be from an architect, and every serious entry was by an architect. I don't think it would have taken that much effort to draw up a serious proposal. Sure, a couple of days work. If your idea was good, the competition would pay you to refine the design. Not having the resources is a really poor excuse, IMO.

I am sure people are getting sick of me talking about this but I just wanted to address this. The bolded part is what I take issue with. To enter a proper proposal that could win (if it was a sanctioned design competition) and still be built at the end of the day after a commission is awarded takes a tremendous amount of time. Not just two days or so. We are talking about weeks or months with multiple people involved. Something like the Peace Bridge that Calatrava designed would have been in development for months before we saw the very first image. He can do that because he had a contract for about $2.5 million in design services. By the time we saw the first images in the paper I would guess that he rolled through 25% of that in design and engineering analysis so that the image presented was not just an image, he knew by that time it could be built. The one image you see is the result of months of engineering analysis, scrapped designs, and reworking. So we are talking about well over 1/2 million spent on design before you even saw the first image, most likely even more was spent. The deposit alone was most likely 10% of the total fee, so 1/4 million before pen was even put to paper.

I have no problem with that by the way. Just an idea as to the amount of work needed and resources needed to do something new and inventive.



I dropped by the bridge today just to take a look. I think it looks pretty cool. Like I said before I like the simplicity of it. Although it does seem to have a bit of a retro 60s-70s sort of look to it IMHO. The span is much shorter then I had imagined just through the images I have seen.


I would hope people interested in architectural design competitions and direct contract commissions would read the attachment in the above post. It sheds a little light on the requirements and why it is difficult to provide a great submission in a design competition without spending a ton of money in the process. Because if you don't spend that money, like I said before, your submission would really be nothing more than an exercise in self gratification. That is also the reason that allot of architects avoid sanctioned design competitions.

I should have avoided this thread like I did for years. I knew once I posted I would have a hard time stopping.

[V]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I can't think of any industry where a company/individual gets paid to submit a quote or respond to an RFP. How could anybody put out an RFP or request a quote if they had to pay everybody who responded? I don't even get what you're whining about...you sound kind of ridiculous.

Then you're obviously not in the right industry. Several JVs were paid millions to put together proposals for the West LRT. The amount of time required to put together a competitive bid was enormous, and no company in their right mind would spend that time and effort just for a chance to bid on something.

This idea of a free competition results in exactly what we got for the Prince Edward Bridge. Uninspired, easy to produce designs. Why would a company, especially a very small company spend the resources required to produce something innovative and original when they need to put food on their plate? The City got exactly what they deserved. The best part of it is, now they can confidently point to that competition and say "See! That's what happens when you don't sole-source to an award winning architect!".

[SebC]

Originally Posted by V

Then you're obviously not in the right industry. Several JVs were paid millions to put together proposals for the West LRT. The amount of time required to put together a competitive bid was enormous, and no company in their right mind would spend that time and effort just for a chance to bid on something.

This idea of a free competition results in exactly what we got for the Prince Edward Bridge. Uninspired, easy to produce designs. Why would a company, especially a very small company spend the resources required to produce something innovative and original when they need to put food on their plate? The City got exactly what they deserved. The best part of it is, now they can confidently point to that competition and say "See! That's what happens when you don't sole-source to an award winning architect!".

Except we didn't get uninspired designs. It was the selection that was uninspired.

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by SebC

Except we didn't get uninspired designs. It was the selection that was uninspired.

Is there a web site that shows all of the designs? I would be interested in seeing more of them. I did a search and saw about 3 of them.

[Suave]

Originally Posted by RogerWilco

Is there a web site that shows all of the designs? I would be interested in seeing more of them. I did a search and saw about 3 of them.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=173786

[CrusaderPi]

Originally Posted by Clarkey

Pop a fancy looking security camera on either end (fake or otherwise) and they'll limit this risk substantially.

Won't stop me from following through with my plan.

[nik-]

Looking back on those, it's funny how many of them are white masts with wire sections like many of Calatrava's older projects.

[RogerWilco]

I saw a few of them before. Just over the top kind of stuff. Keep it simple stupid.

[wooohooo]

I must say this one looked awesome

Spoiler!

I would probably prefer that one over the current design. Maybe this one looks ugly from a different angle but I like the simple but different design.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by wooohooo

I must say this one looked awesome

Spoiler!

I would probably prefer that one over the current design. Maybe this one looks ugly from a different angle but I like the simple but different design.

I couldn't disagree more. IMHO, this design looks like a drunken child drew it with crayons.