Mike Smith's... woes? He blows? Eating crows? Who knows! (Also David Rittich exists!)

[Toonage]

^ I heard the comment and I don't think it was quite like that (inferring that there are secret reasons they play Smith as much as they do). I believe it was along the lines of there are things that are said off the record by the coaching staff as to why they play a goalie at a certain time.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

You can do whatever sophistry and mental gymnastics you want to try to convince yourselves that Smith is actually playing just as well as Rittich and Rittich hasn't proven he can carry the load and Peters has things just right.

Has anyone said this?

The fact is if we rely on Smith, it will blow up in our face. Treliving has done a lot of great things as GM but he absolutely does not get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to goalies. He has failed there time after time after time. Peters also does not get benefit of the doubt on goalies. This organization's stubborn faith in Smith is misplaced just like our misplaced faith in Elliott caused our last playoff run to end prematurely.

What does this even mean?

I really hope the Flames do right by Rittich. He has a future. Smith does not. If we leave it to Treliving to go find another two goalies, I have no confidence whatsoever he does things right this time.

You are talking about the future...what about right now and this season?

And it reads like you are suggesting Treliving shouldn't be the guy to fix the goaltending should it be deemed a failure at seasons end...whenever that may be. So are you saying he should be replaced?

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I don't have the energy to say more, but Smith was excellent against the Islanders, a legitimate division-leading playoff team. He made some game-saving stops. My hope is that he can do that many more times this year.

Please remind me who started this thread and what it was previously titled? Do you ever take a nuanced position on anything? It's just like the Gulutzan threads last year. You just go from one extreme position to another, and stubbornly defend it until you give in and then just as doggedly defend the exact opposite position. It's irksome and undermines your credibility.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Toonage

^ I heard the comment and I don't think it was quite like that (inferring that there are secret reasons they play Smith as much as they do). I believe it was along the lines of there are things that are said off the record by the coaching staff as to why they play a goalie at a certain time.

I don't think the reasons are secret, they might be personal in regards to Rittich. Could be somewhat injured for all we know.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Toonage

^ I heard the comment and I don't think it was quite like that (inferring that there are secret reasons they play Smith as much as they do). I believe it was along the lines of there are things that are said off the record by the coaching staff as to why they play a goalie at a certain time.

This is exactly what he was saying and also intimated there was some sort of stat they keep that shows how important to the team that the G's puck handling is and helps...something close to that.

No idea what that might be, but that was what the message was.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Please remind me who started this thread and what it was previously titled? Do you ever take a nuanced position on anything? It's just like the Gulutzan threads last year. You just go from one extreme position to another, and stubbornly defend it until you give in and then just as doggedly defend the exact opposite position. It's irksome and undermines your credibility.

"Exact opposite position?" Nah, I'm not in favour of Smith. I don't think he's a good goaltender in many situations. I still don't think he's a good solution. My position changed from "get rid of him" to "there's nothing we can reasonably do to upgrade this season so we're stuck with him and we have to hope for the best." And then he improved somewhat.

Besides, all I said there is "I hope Smith can continue to be good." I didn't say I expected it, because he hasn't given fans much reason to expect much from him. But he has been better lately, and I've been pleasantly surprised.

Also, I was largely in favour of Gulutzan until he was fired. Don't recall changing my position there. I can look back now and say I was wrong, easily.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Has anyone said this?



What does this even mean?



You are talking about the future...what about right now and this season?

And it reads like you are suggesting Treliving shouldn't be the guy to fix the goaltending should it be deemed a failure at seasons end...whenever that may be. So are you saying he should be replaced?

Yes, there are many including those within the organization apparently who still don't believe Rittich has proven himself. Your take on giving preference to Smith is not reasonable in my opinion. I am not advocating that Treliving lose his job but I don't have faith in him "fixing" goaltending and it would be another monumental error if we lose Rittich because the organization showed no confidence in him. I think if he doesn't figure out goaltending in the next season, it is a failure that might get him replaced.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

You can do whatever sophistry and mental gymnastics you want to try to convince yourselves that Smith is actually playing just as well as Rittich and Rittich hasn't proven he can carry the load and Peters has things just right...

“Sophistry”? “Mental gymnastics”? I’m just looking at the games, the results, and the numbers over a stretch of the last several weeks. They pretty clearly show two goalies who have not been great, but also not been bad. More to the point, they have played fairly evenly.

The fact is if we rely on Smith, it will blow up in our face. Treliving has done a lot of great things as GM but he absolutely does not get the benefit of the doubt when it comes to goalies. He has failed there time after time after time. Peters also does not get benefit of the doubt on goalies. This organization's stubborn faith in Smith is misplaced just like our misplaced faith in Elliott caused our last playoff run to end prematurely.

The Flames have compiled their best regular season record in 30 YEARS. That buys as much benefit of doubt as there is for the coach and the GM. I think people misconstrue “moderately higher confidence” for “stubborn faith.” Simply put: the organization is more confident in the better seasoned, more experienced goalie who has played several years as a starter and has played playoff games than they are in the young, first-year NHL starter. The decisions made about Smith have just as much to do with ensuring that David Rittich succeeds, but they are ultimately about team success. To think otherwise is ridiculous.

really hope the Flames do right by Rittich. He has a future. Smith does not. If we leave it to Treliving to go find another two goalies, I have no confidence whatsoever he does things right this time.

I don’t know why people keep bringing up the first point, because it is nonsense. The Flames are fighting for a Division title; the future beyond this season should not really be much of a factor at this point of the year. Whether or not Mike Smith has a future with the team does not change the fact that he is part of the team now, today, next week, and in the playoffs.

As for Treliving, this has been his weak point in an otherwise stellar performance of team construction. It can take a LONG time to build a championship team; if this is the only hole left for him to fill after five years in the job, then I think that is quite impressive.


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[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

"Exact opposite position?" Nah, I'm not in favour of Smith. I don't think he's a good goaltender in many situations. I still don't think he's a good solution. My position changed from "get rid of him" to "there's nothing we can reasonably do to upgrade this season so we're stuck with him and we have to hope for the best." And then he improved somewhat.

Besides, all I said there is "I hope Smith can continue to be good." I didn't say I expected it, because he hasn't given fans much reason to expect much from him. But he has been better lately, and I've been pleasantly surprised.

Also, I was largely in favour of Gulutzan until he was fired. Don't recall changing my position there. I can look back now and say I was wrong, easily.

Fair enough. For me, Smith has some good games but he is not more reliable than Rittich. Of course play fluctuates and he may have better stats over a stretch of games but he's nowhere close on the season or the past year, and Smith lets in bad backbreaking goals at very inopportune times that cost the team games. That is the kind of goaltending that will lose us a series we would otherwise win. My concern is with people who believe that Smith is somehow the better option because of his experience. He just can't be relied upon at this point.

[Johnhitbox]

You guys should have cheered longer........


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[TheScorpion]

I'm far more confident in David Rittich. He should be starting the majority of games going forward. I don't share the feeling that management doesn't trust him, though -- he's still a relatively young guy for a goalie and yet they've given him the majority of the games. I think he'll get the lion's share going down the stretch and I'm confident he'll be the #1 in the playoffs.

Smith will be an adequate backup, I think -- he's still a better option than anyone else in the system, and we have to live with that and search for the positives in it. I'm a bigger fan than most of his puck-handling skills, but at the same time, he needs to pick his spots and come up clutch in certain situations. With Smith, there have been far too many instances of him giving up a backbreaker at the worst possible time.

Give Smith the game against Arizona -- he usually plays well against them. Give him New Jersey, give him Ottawa, give him L.A. And then give him to a different team next year, if he can get a contract.

[Fan in Exile]

I think Rittich is the more reliable goalie. I think that the belief that Smith is more reliable because he's more experienced is biased, conservative and out-dated thinking. It would be foolhardy to expect Smith to lead this team on a long playoff run. Rittich is more of an unknown but we will only know if he can do it if we give him the opportunity. If he can't do it this year, it can give him valuable experience for a future run and allow us to evaluate his long-term value to the club, and make a more informed decision about who we need to bring in for next season.

[Bingo]

Man do people get emotional about goalies.

Smith's gaff gives Rittich the start (my guess) and against an actual NHL team (Devils/Senators not so much).

If Rittich is solid tonight he may take the net on merit again, lately merit hasn't gone his way as Smith has had better numbers.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Yes, there are many including those within the organization apparently who still don't believe Rittich has proven himself. Your take on giving preference to Smith is not reasonable in my opinion. I am not advocating that Treliving lose his job but I don't have faith in him "fixing" goaltending and it would be another monumental error if we lose Rittich because the organization showed no confidence in him. I think if he doesn't figure out goaltending in the next season, it is a failure that might get him replaced.

My take? Nope.

ALL I have been saying is play the guy who is going the best....and numbers tell the story that they are almost dead even in that situation going back to Jan. 1.

A decided advantage to Smith since the all star break.

Which, if you agree with that ^^, suggests Peters has followed the same thought process.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

I think that the belief that Smith is more reliable because he's more experienced is biased, conservative and out-dated thinking.

That faith in veterans and track records is a feature of the NHL - a league with a very conservative mindset. Pecking-order is very much based on longevity and the social status you have on the team. I don't necessarily fault Peters and the rest of the Flames braintrust for giving Smith a much longer leash than Rittich, because that mentality is the norm in the league.

Maybe a team or coaching staff will come along in the league that chucks that whole mentality out. It would be refreshing. But I doubt the Flames are going to be trailblazers here.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

Yes, there are many including those within the organization apparently who still don't believe Rittich has proven himself.

So, what does this mean? What do you think Rittich has proved, and to what is he entitled because of it?

I think he has proved a tonne this year. He proved that he can be a reliable, quality backup goalie that can carry the team when needed. This on its own is a huge step over last year. Rittich proved that he can play at the same level as a starter. That—to my eye—is a tremendous and unexpected accomplishment. When you hear people within the organization talk about Rittich they speak glowingly and clearly believe that he has a bright future.

Your take on giving preference to Smith is not reasonable in my opinion.

Is anyone giving “preference” to Smith? Not as far as I can see. I see a group of incredulous posters at the fact that Smith is still starting games, and another group who see two goalies who are playing pretty evenly at the moment as the reason for why Smith has started more games. Again, when they are playing near the same level it is PERFECTLY REASONABLE to expect the seasoned veteran with tones of experience to get a few more starts.

I am not advocating that Treliving lose his job but I don't have faith in him "fixing" goaltending and it would be another monumental error if we lose Rittich because the organization showed no confidence in him. I think if he doesn't figure out goaltending in the next season, it is a failure that might get him replaced.

What on earth? The Flames are NOT “losing” Rittich in free agency. You should really pay closer attention to what the coaches and management say about him. The Flames love this guy. It’s preposterous to think that they don’t think highly enough of him to extend him.


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[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

I think Rittich is the more reliable goalie. I think that the belief that Smith is more reliable because he's more experienced is biased, conservative and out-dated thinking. It would be foolhardy to expect Smith to lead this team on a long playoff run. Rittich is more of an unknown but we will only know if he can do it if we give him the opportunity. If he can't do it this year, it can give him valuable experience for a future run and allow us to evaluate his long-term value to the club, and make a more informed decision about who we need to bring in for next season.

Second or third time you have stated this....who is saying this?

[442scotty]

Although no one on the team will ever say or admit it, playing Smith puts a lot more stress on everyone which is going to take its toll eventually at which point the team starts to get a “what’s the point” line of thinking and everything starts to fall apart. If we are thinking that Smith has fallen off the wagon again you can bet it’s at the back of the players minds.

I hope Rittich is ready now to carry the bulk of the load now. Gonna be a short playoff run if he isn’t .

[jmac98]

Having a reputation for being a goalie who's adept at playing the puck still just firmly entrenches Smith as the worst puck handler on the ice for his team at all times. It's an asset to be able to negate things like the dump and chase game, however, Smith tends to overstay his welcome outside of the crease far too often by involving himself in plays he otherwise has no business being in.
Sometimes its ok to just stop the puck and leave it clean for your defensemen to retrieve, or otherwise simply ring the puck around the boards out of harms way if there's pressure. His continued desire to hold the puck amidst an aggressive forecheck to look for a play versus making a safe decision and getting back in position is what gets him in trouble and confuses/entangles himself with his own teammates behind the net.

[Bingo]

Updated recency stats ...

		Last 5	Last 10	Last 15	Last 20
Smith	34	0.914	0.911	0.896	0.903
Rittich	36	0.871	0.891	0.902	0.908

Smith's bad start against Minnesota brings Rittich back to the top of the two for 15 and 20 games back. Smith still leads the last 5 and last 10.

If Rittich starts tonight and plays well he will fix up the last five number quite a a bit as he's burning off the first of three straight rough starts in February.