Tamil Migrant Ship M/V Sun Sea will arrive Canada by Aug 14th

[FlamesAddiction]

My favourite part of this fiasco is how the "refugees" wrote a ltter saying that they will abide by the laws of Canada if allowed to stay... this, after breaking the laws of Canada to pay human smugglers to get themselves here. Sorry, but no....

While it's true that way more people arrive in Canada by plane and seek refugee status than the 490 that arrived on this boat, the real issue here is organized human smuggling which is illegal and immoral. Not only could it be a vector for letting in terrorists and criminals, but these human smuggling rings are often controlled by gangsters and the people they smuggle are often subject to future extortion once they are in Canada. Many times, they are forced to sell and smuggle drugs to pay back their debt to the people who brought them over.

Go to downtown Vancouver for example and find out who the cocaine and heroin dealers are. Most of them are immigrants or refugees from SE Asia or Honduras. It's nearly impossible to "weed them" when they arrive because many arrive with the best of intentions but have to pay off their "debt" to the gangsters.

[Devils'Advocate]

If I were living in a place where there is "widespread occurrences of disappearances, mass murders and extortion", then I would be willing to sacrifice every last bit of my personal savings to get my family the hell out of there, even if it was paying the devil to do it. I don't think that makes me a horrible human being. And I don't see how it means I wouldn't be a law abiding citizen once I got to a peaceful nation.

[VladtheImpaler]

The thing with the Tamils in particular is that LTTE (the Tigers) has a very long reach and controls/terrorizes the immigrant communities in places like London and Toronto. It milks these people to finance the war of liberation. So, whatever the intentions of any particular Tamil...

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

If I were living in a place where there is "widespread occurrences of disappearances, mass murders and extortion", then I would be willing to sacrifice every last bit of my personal savings to get my family the hell out of there, even if it was paying the devil to do it. I don't think that makes me a horrible human being. And I don't see how it means I wouldn't be a law abiding citizen once I got to a peaceful nation.

If someone is willing to deal with criminals to get here, they could very well be willing to deal with criminals once they are here to get other family here or to protect themselves from the organized crime they were involved with to get here.

Many of the "boat people" from Vietnam during the 70s and 80s were in situations like that. Many people got pulled in to heroin trafficing to ensure their safety once they were here.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

But Chad is not doing anything, other than not driving them back. The UN and charities are actually paying for it. I did not see either the UN or the Oxfam flag in Victoria.

All Chad has to offer is their good will. You seem to be offended and put out by the idea of even offering that.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

All Chad has to offer is their good will. You seem to be offended and put out by the idea of even offering that.

No, what I would do is offer them emergency medical aid, food, and fuel and send them on their way. Alternatively, set up a processing centre off-shore, and house them there until you decide whether these people meet your criteria. Unfortunately, we have the Charter, and the SCC has ruled that these people have rights as soon as they come within its jurisdiction. I'm not opposed to helping these people - I'm just opposed to people that circumvent the system getting essentially an open-ended opportunity to freeload on the taxpayer. This situation cries out for the use of the "notwithstanding" clause.

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

No, what I would do is offer them emergency medical aid, food, and fuel and send them on their way. Alternatively, set up a processing centre off-shore, and house them there until you decide whether these people meet your criteria. Unfortunately, we have the Charter, and the SCC has ruled that these people have rights as soon as they come within its jurisdiction. I'm not opposed to helping these people - I'm just opposed to people that circumvent the system getting essentially an open-ended opportunity to freeload on the taxpayer. This situation cries out for the use of the "notwithstanding" clause.

Sometimes necessitiy trumps "following the system."

They're human beings, man.

[Mirajj]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Sometimes necessity trumps "following the system."

They're human beings, man.

Sure they are. What about the next boat? The boat after? After that one? At what point do we stop saying "No more gaming the system, no more free ride." If we look like a pansy nation who allows anyone who can get here free rein to come in, who's going to close the door?

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

Sometimes necessitiy trumps "following the system."

They're human beings, man.

And? There are a lot of human beings. I didn't say shoot them. I just object to paying for years of welfare. You do realize the war in Sri Lanka is over? There is less reason to flee now than there was a year ago. The only people that really need to flee now are LTTE...

[Azure]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

And? There are a lot of human beings. I didn't say shoot them. I just object to paying for years of welfare. You do realize the war in Sri Lanka is over? There is less reason to flee now than there was a year ago. The only people that really need to flee now are LTTE...

Something a lot of people forget, and the main reason why I object to these people coming here.

http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...009833,00.html

[Traditional_Ale]

Originally Posted by Mirajj

Sure they are. What about the next boat? The boat after? After that one? At what point do we stop saying "No more gaming the system, no more free ride." If we look like a pansy nation who allows anyone who can get here free rein to come in, who's going to close the door?

I understand completely where you are coming from and most certainly respect your position. World economic conspiracies aside, would you consider entertaining the idea that this is possibly fall-out from the growing disparity between 1st world nations and have-not nations?

We are fortunate enough to have the lifestyle we do while other nations are in so much trouble economically, medically, even on a level of basic sanitation and running water while 1st world nations essentially ravage them for recources that they will never ever come out of it.

Without going all Star Trek on you, maybe the real answer to these issues is the idea of 1st world countries sacrificing some national autonomy for the idea of some kind of world government and a redistribution of wealth and resources. There is more than enough food, water, and energy for everyone in the world, but some nations horde it to maintain a lifestyle that is entirely unreasonable when contextualized with the suffering it brings on so many people.

Wow, that sounds overly romantic, but its all I got.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Azure

Something a lot of people forget, and the main reason why I object to these people coming here.

You object to them coming here based on:

"I did not see much improvement in the situation of the civilians when I was there," says Suresh Premachandran, a parliamentarian from the Tamil National Alliance. Indeed, goods transported south are still searched by police and parts of the Vanni remain closed to the rest of the country. There are also complaints of extortion, artificial monopolies and kidnappings for ransom, Sarvananthan says. Despite the return of tens of thousands displaced by the fighting, the reconstruction of houses is only beginning and permanent jobs still remain elusive. There are worries, too, that outsiders will siphon off the region's meager gains.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

I understand completely where you are coming from and most certainly respect your position. World economic conspiracies aside, would you consider entertaining the idea that this is possibly fall-out from the growing disparity between 1st world nations and have-not nations?

We are fortunate enough to have the lifestyle we do while other nations are in so much trouble economically, medically, even on a level of basic sanitation and running water while 1st world nations essentially ravage them for recources that they will never ever come out of it.

Without going all Star Trek on you, maybe the real answer to these issues is the idea of 1st world countries sacrificing some national autonomy for the idea of some kind of world government and a redistribution of wealth and resources. There is more than enough food, water, and energy for everyone in the world, but some nations horde it to maintain a lifestyle that is entirely unreasonable when contextualized with the suffering it brings on so many people.

Wow, that sounds overly romantic, but its all I got.

Not only is it overly romantic, but at current population growth rates in the 3rd world, it probably isn't possible. There is some serious concern in the scientific community these days that our planet could reach it's carrying capacity by 2050. Right now, there might technically be enough resources to provide for the world if distribution and enegry costs weren't an issue, but probably not well into the future.

As a side, I read that the cost of housing, medical care, and claims processing for each of these migrants is going to cost $100k per person over the next month. It could potentially take years to settle all the claims apparently when you consider appeals. By that time, some of the claimants will have had children in Canada probably. When all is said and done, this is going to be really expensive.... not to mention the 2 other boats rumoured to be embarking soon, with another 6 to follow (read it on a forum.. not sure of the accuracy).

[Resolute 14]

Should pull that cost out of our foreign aid budget.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Should pull that cost out of our foreign aid budget.

As cold as I know this will sound, i was thinking indentured labour could be the answer.

[Mirajj]

I guess what really bothers me about this is that they are just let in. I have a friend in the US who's been trying to immigrate to Canada for years. He's never been in trouble with the law, has held down a steady job in the US since he was old enough to work.

He just prefers Canada, and would much rather live here. He can't get here. He would be a law abiding, productive member of society right from the get-go (Speaks our language, knows the basics of our laws, doesn't come with any different religions) and could begin working upon issue of the papers he needs to get here.

But he can't get the papers. He's been quietly told to "not even bother trying" to immigrate by his local US immigration office.

Too bad HE can't just jump on a boat, sail out to international waters, back in again, and claim refugee status, eh.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Mirajj

But he can't get the papers. He's been quietly told to "not even bother trying" to immigrate by his local US immigration office.

Too bad HE can't just jump on a boat, sail out to international waters, back in again, and claim refugee status, eh.

Unless your friend has a degree in Engineering, he likely wont be coming here.

[HPLovecraft]

Originally Posted by Mirajj

I guess what really bothers me about this is that they are just let in. I have a friend in the US who's been trying to immigrate to Canada for years. He's never been in trouble with the law, has held down a steady job in the US since he was old enough to work.

He just prefers Canada, and would much rather live here. He can't get here. He would be a law abiding, productive member of society right from the get-go (Speaks our language, knows the basics of our laws, doesn't come with any different religions) and could begin working upon issue of the papers he needs to get here.

But he can't get the papers. He's been quietly told to "not even bother trying" to immigrate by his local US immigration office.

Too bad HE can't just jump on a boat, sail out to international waters, back in again, and claim refugee status, eh.

Refugee and immigrant are totally separate things. I don't think it's even remotely fair to try and compare a guy trying to move here from the States to people who sailed the Pacific in a TB-infested boat to get away from their country.

[henriksedin33]

I read today that once supposed "refugees" land in a "safe" country (the Sun Sea departed from Thailand), they are ineligible to declare refugee status somewhere else? If this is true, why is it not being enforced?

Judging by the comments on the news websites, the Liberals just lost a LOT of votes. As they should.

'Lower the tone' on migrant debate: Liberals

Opposition critics have called on the Conservative government to show more compassion for the plight of those on board the MV Sun Sea instead of linking the migrants to terrorism.
Liberal MP Marc Garneau said Public Safety Minister Vic Toews should "lower the tone" of the security concerns and allow the refugee application process to play out. He noted the new cases represented only two per cent of the 30,000 refugee applications Canada receives annually.
"We have an obligation to look at each person in a case-by-case basis," Garneau said. "A sense of proportion would be nice."

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-col...#ixzz0wurzsHbe

[HOOT]

Originally Posted by Mirajj

Too bad HE can't just jump on a boat, sail out to international waters, back in again, and claim refugee status, eh.

There was a letter to the editor in the Times Colonist (Victoria) where the writer proposed putting all the homeless on a boat, shipping them out and back in so then the government might actually take care of them. Thought it was pretty funny.

I wonder how many boats it will take before Canada says enough.