DC sniper to be executed tonight....

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

But you just did make a slippery slope argument. Victim impact and victim healing are already factors in sentencing and the justice system. There's no reason for this to lead to the crazy items at the end of your quote.

Oh come on now, you know that was just a dumb joke at the end of that post.

But still, I don't know that victim impact statements are factors in sentencing. Maybe they are. My understanding of victim impact statements is that they are a forum for victims to say their piece and to let the judge and jury to hear about what the crime has done to them. Maybe it does play a role in sentencing. But the sentence still has to follow the rules and far as I know, "it'll make the victim feel better if I condemn this guy to death" isn't, I hope, a consideration. I guess it probably is though.

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

There's a middle ground between victim's wants not being a factor, and victims wants being an extreme factor. Most things in life fall in middle grounds like this and it doesn't mean we have to fear the dreaded slippery slope.

Yeah, that's fair enough, if the accused is actually guilty.

To veer slightly off course here... say one of my kids gets snatched and killed by some nut. I know I could put together a compelling victim impact statement when the time comes. The evidence is all presented, I say my piece, the killer is found guilty and executed and it all works out. A few years later it comes out that we were all wrong. Somebody else did it. Now how do I feel about that?

I've got a few reasons to be against capital punishment, but the easiest one is that the government makes a lot of mistakes. How many of us would say that our government does something efficiently or properly even 75% of the time?

We're all guilty when an innocent person gets murdered by the government with our consent.

[Thor]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I disagree that my taxes should have to be put towards feeding, housing, and caring for convicted murderers. That's not the only reason I'm for the death penatly, but I do feel like a system that actively works to keep these animals alive by using public funds is wrong.

Well as has been repeatedly mentioned, death row inmates cost the tax payer much more than a life imprisonment inmate. So your 1 argument about this issue being about money is invalid.

If you spent 1yr in a federal or max security prison, you would quickly think that its club med living in a prison. The violence, rapes, brutality, and hopelessness is overwhelming. Much worse than a fate that is simply, assisted suicide. ;D

If some psycho kills my family and goes to jail for the rest of his life, he's guaranteed food, shelter, and medical care for the rest of his life - and the kicker is that I technically am paying for it. This doesn't even address the fact that I, as a contributing member of society, am not guaranteed any of these things for the next week, let alone the rest of my life. How is that justice?

So you support torture. Nice. Thankfully a justice system is not based on emotions or revenge, if it was we'd be back in Roman days watching people get thrown to the lions. Its a social contract btw, we pay for prisons and incarceration because its a benefit to us as a society.

Capital punishment is something that outside of the US has been removed from civilized society in the west, and parts of Asia. If you look at the list of those nations still supporting state sponsored murder its a top notch group of theocracies, dictatorships, oh yeah and the US of A.

The Night Stalker got married a few years back. Charlie Manson sits in prison, watches TV, and answers letters all day. The death penalty is definitely more of a punishment.

Manson does suck, I mean when its a complete psycho like him really life is not a big deterrent, he's not sane. But when the vast majority of people in prison suffer immensely from imprisonment, time does matter. Like I suggested earlier in this thread, its much worse to face life in prison vs a death penalty. I know for me if I had a choice, death or life in a hell hole like prison I would need all of 1 second to decide for death.

Death penalty has put to death 1000's of innocents, its used by backward regimes, by theocracies and outside of the US no western nation supports it.

That says a lot, civilized people don't want the government killing people. Its sad this is a debate in Canada, but some people want to use emotions over logic.

So I can only assume you're against abortion and euthanasia, too?

I'm for all means to reduce abortions, and that abortion is a last option for early term pregnancies. Late term abortions should only be for safety issues, nothing else.

I support euthanasia, I think its ridiculous to force people who are clearly going to die; to suffer needlessly because of some stupid beliefs that its morally wrong.

Watch anyone die of cancer and other incurable disease; then tell me its OK for them to spend days, weeks, or months in immense pain just so we don't 'intervene' and put them out of their misery, based on some 'morals' ???

[Thor]

That list of nations with the death penalty, for the enlightened nations of the world.

• Afghanistan
• Antigua and Barbuda
• Bahamas
• Bahrain
• Bangladesh
• Barbados
• Belarus
• Belize
• Botswana
• Burundi
• Cameroon
• Chad
• China (People's Republic)
• Comoros
• Congo (Democratic Republic)
• Cuba
• Dominica
• Egypt
• Equatorial Guinea
• Eritrea
• Ethiopia
• Gabon
• Ghana
• Guatemala
• Guinea
• Guyana
• India
• Indonesia
• Iran
• Iraq
• Jamaica
• Japan
• Jordan
• Korea, North
• Korea, South
• Kuwait

• Laos
• Lebanon
• Lesotho
• Libya
• Malawi
• Malaysia
• Mongolia
• Nigeria
• Oman
• Pakistan
• Palestinian Authority
• Qatar
• St. Kitts and Nevis
• St. Lucia
• St. Vincent and the Grenadines
• Saudi Arabia
• Sierra Leone
• Singapore
• Somalia
• Sudan
• Swaziland
• Syria
• Taiwan
• Tajikistan
• Tanzania
• Thailand
• Trinidad and Tobago
• Uganda
• United Arab Emirates
• United States
• Vietnam
• Yemen
• Zambia
• Zimbabwe

[Thor]

A proud group of enlightened nations who are beacon's of civilized humanity.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Thor

Well as has been repeatedly mentioned, death row inmates cost the tax payer much more than a life imprisonment inmate. So your 1 argument about this issue being about money is invalid.

Already addressed this.

If you spent 1yr in a federal or max security prison, you would quickly think that its club med living in a prison. The violence, rapes, brutality, and hopelessness is overwhelming. Much worse than a fate that is simply, assisted suicide. ;D

I never said prison was a nice place to go to. I still think a good number of prisoners would choose prison over death. And the incidents you're talking about (i.e. rapes, brutality, etc.) are much more prevalent in U.S. prisons than Canadian prisons.

So you support torture. Nice. Thankfully a justice system is not based on emotions or revenge, if it was we'd be back in Roman days watching people get thrown to the lions. Its a social contract btw, we pay for prisons and incarceration because its a benefit to us as a society.

LOL, nice leap. You even got a good twist in with that one. I understand it's a social contract, but that doesn't mean I agree with it. Paying to have these people eliminated from society benefits us just as much as locking them up for 20+ years.

Capital punishment is something that outside of the US has been removed from civilized society in the west, and parts of Asia. If you look at the list of those nations still supporting state sponsored murder its a top notch group of theocracies, dictatorships, oh yeah and the US of A.


Death penalty has put to death 1000's of innocents, its used by backward regimes, by theocracies and outside of the US no western nation supports it.

That says a lot, civilized people don't want the government killing people. Its sad this is a debate in Canada, but some people want to use emotions over logic.

Yeah! Look at all those uncivilized nations on your list, like Japan, India, and Singapore!

I'm for all means to reduce abortions, and that abortion is a last option for early term pregnancies. Late term abortions should only be for safety issues, nothing else.

I support euthanasia, I think its ridiculous to force people who are clearly going to die; to suffer needlessly because of some stupid beliefs that its morally wrong.

Watch anyone die of cancer and other incurable disease; then tell me its OK for them to spend days, weeks, or months in immense pain just so we don't 'intervene' and put them out of their misery, based on some 'morals' ???

I agree with all of this. My point was in response to valo asking if it was okay for the state to kill a person. I believe it is, in certain circumstances.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Yeah, that's fair enough, if the accused is actually guilty.

To veer slightly off course here... say one of my kids gets snatched and killed by some nut. I know I could put together a compelling victim impact statement when the time comes. The evidence is all presented, I say my piece, the killer is found guilty and executed and it all works out. A few years later it comes out that we were all wrong. Somebody else did it. Now how do I feel about that?

I've got a few reasons to be against capital punishment, but the easiest one is that the government makes a lot of mistakes. How many of us would say that our government does something efficiently or properly even 75% of the time?

We're all guilty when an innocent person gets murdered by the government with our consent.

You know what? I have to admit this is a pretty compelling argument against capital punishment for me. I must say, I've changed my mind somewhat on the issue. In theory, I would support it if we know 100% the person is guilty. But the reality is, mistakes often do happen (especially when it comes to the government).

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by The Yen Man

You know what? I have to admit this is a pretty compelling argument against capital punishment for me. I must say, I've changed my mind somewhat on the issue. In theory, I would support it if we know 100% the person is guilty. But the reality is, mistakes often do happen (especially when it comes to the government).

This is the one argument against capital punishment that I agree with. What Rouge did fail to point out though is that it's not the government that convicts these guys.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Thor

That list of nations with the death penalty, for the enlightened nations of the world.

• Afghanistan
• Antigua and Barbuda
• Bahamas
• Bahrain
• Bangladesh
• Barbados
• Belarus
• Belize
• Botswana
• Burundi
• Cameroon
• Chad
• China (People's Republic)
• Comoros
• Congo (Democratic Republic)
• Cuba
• Dominica
• Egypt
• Equatorial Guinea
• Eritrea
• Ethiopia
• Gabon
• Ghana
• Guatemala
• Guinea
• Guyana
• India
• Indonesia
• Iran
• Iraq
• Jamaica
• Japan
• Jordan
• Korea, North
• Korea, South
• Kuwait

• Laos
• Lebanon
• Lesotho
• Libya
• Malawi
• Malaysia
• Mongolia
• Nigeria
• Oman
• Pakistan
• Palestinian Authority
• Qatar
• St. Kitts and Nevis
• St. Lucia
• St. Vincent and the Grenadines
• Saudi Arabia
• Sierra Leone
• Singapore
• Somalia
• Sudan
• Swaziland
• Syria
• Taiwan
• Tajikistan
• Tanzania
• Thailand
• Trinidad and Tobago
• Uganda
• United Arab Emirates
• United States
• Vietnam
• Yemen
• Zambia
• Zimbabwe

I'm a little surprised that Japan still has it. Mexico should be on that list,instead of "legally" putting people to death they have their hit squads do it. In one year more people are executed in Mexican jails than 5 years of "legal" executions in the states.

[FlamesAddiction]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Canada still technically have it for cases of national treason?

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Oh come on now, you know that was just a dumb joke at the end of that post.

But still, I don't know that victim impact statements are factors in sentencing. Maybe they are. My understanding of victim impact statements is that they are a forum for victims to say their piece and to let the judge and jury to hear about what the crime has done to them. Maybe it does play a role in sentencing. But the sentence still has to follow the rules and far as I know, "it'll make the victim feel better if I condemn this guy to death" isn't, I hope, a consideration. I guess it probably is though.

I knew you were joking, just trying to illustrate their was a middle ground, and the slippery slope isn't likely something to fear here.
As to whether victim impacts should be a factor, lets just agree to disagree. I think they should play some role and that contributes to my views on the death penalty.

Yeah, that's fair enough, if the accused is actually guilty.

To veer slightly off course here... say one of my kids gets snatched and killed by some nut. I know I could put together a compelling victim impact statement when the time comes. The evidence is all presented, I say my piece, the killer is found guilty and executed and it all works out. A few years later it comes out that we were all wrong. Somebody else did it. Now how do I feel about that?

I've got a few reasons to be against capital punishment, but the easiest one is that the government makes a lot of mistakes. How many of us would say that our government does something efficiently or properly even 75% of the time?

We're all guilty when an innocent person gets murdered by the government with our consent.

I agree completely with this, which is why I'm not a supporter of the death penalty and find myself somewhere in a grey area on the whole issue. The possibility of killing an innocent person is something that prevents me from usually supporting it.

[Coys1882]

Originally Posted by Thor

A proud group of enlightened nations who are beacon's of civilized humanity.

Some people would argue that the nations not on this list have lost to Political correctness and bleeding hearts against the wishes of their nation's citizens rather than having an epiphany of humanitarianism and morality.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Canada still technically have it for cases of national treason?

Pretty sure they abolished that in the late 90's as well.

[Hemi-Cuda]

what i find most ironic is that the pro-death penalty crowd in the States is usually also the anti-abortion crowd, who use the "all life is sacred" argument. they are also the group that refuse to believe their government is capable of handling something like healthcare because of incompetence, but somehow they are fully capable of putting people to death without ever screwing up and sticking an innocent person on death row

fact is that if 100% of the people put to death were in fact guilty, then i'd be for the death penalty. but even if that percentage drops to 99% it's not worth it, and there have been far too many death row pardons over the years in the States to make me believe that some innocent people have been given lethal injections

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Hemi-Cuda

what i find most ironic is that the pro-death penalty crowd in the States is usually also the anti-abortion crowd, who use the "all life is sacred" argument. they are also the group that refuse to believe their government is capable of handling something like healthcare because of incompetence, but somehow they are fully capable of putting people to death without ever screwing up and sticking an innocent person on death row

fact is that if 100% of the people put to death were in fact guilty, then i'd be for the death penalty. but even if that percentage drops to 99% it's not worth it, and there have been far too many death row pardons over the years in the States to make me believe that some innocent people have been given lethal injections

I'm not sure I see the irony...

I can easily see the difference between a new human being that has not had the chance to live its life and one that has chosen to commit some heinous act against his fellow man.

Besides, the government bureaucracy only executes the guilty, it is the job of the justice system to try him.

That said, I'm still mainly against capital punishment, except in extreme circumstances where there is no doubt.

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Thor

A proud group of enlightened nations who are beacon's of civilized humanity.

You should see the list of those so called enlightened nations who routinely murder their unborn.

[Antithesis]

Alright, now this thread is gonna get good.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

You should see the list of those so called enlightened nations who routinely murder their unborn.

You're not comparing the death penalty and abortion, are you?!?!

[Calgaryborn]

Originally Posted by Winsor_Pilates

You're not comparing the death penalty and abortion, are you?!?!

Of course not; the death penalty is given to those guilty of more than being unwanted. The unborn can be killed without trial or sentencing.

I'm just saying that any nation that is unwilling to execute the guilty but has no problem with killing the innocent can hardly be considered enlightened.

[Antithesis]

Yes!!!!!!!

An awesome start to the weekend!

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Coys1882

Some people would argue that the nations not on this list have lost to Political correctness and bleeding hearts against the wishes of their nation's citizens rather than having an epiphany of humanitarianism and morality.

And some people would argue that this is complete nonsense.