I think there is a misconception that ND's or homeopathic doctors. But those are two totally different things. although some ND's do practice homeopathy, but everybody that argues against an ND is usually taking about a homeopathic 'doctor' for their reasoning
No I do understand that, my point was those good ND's should be going out of their way to condemn fellow ND's to step away from the unproven and bunk stuff they peddle.
But really, who can resist homeopathy, vials of water that sell for more by volume often than a bottle of perfume.
All I care about here is simplicity, if you make a claim back it up with evidence. If alternative medicine did this, I'd be its biggest cheerleader, but very little of that industry does; it thrives on gullibility and the negative view on modern drug companies.
Just go to a Chinese health shop and look at all the ridiculous powders and vials of things claiming to help with a gambit of problems. How many animals are killed to fullfill this nonsense without a shred of evidence.
If I felt something helped me and wanted others to benefit from it, I'd want it researched to find out exactly what it was doing. But you don't see the vast majority of alternative medicine doing any of this, in fact its the opposite they go out of their way to appeal to emotions and avoid the dirty little part about not having a shed of proof to back up the claims they make, be they small or bold ones.
Do Dietitians and Other Health Care Professionals Recommend Alkaline Diets?
No. Studies of alkaline diet are limited to animal and test tube trials. There's no scientific evidence at this time that alkaline diets are beneficial to humans.
A Government controlled broadcasting company. This link goes deep into the body explaining what's going on or as you quoted, "scientific evidence".
Stephanie Vangsness, R.D., L.D.N. is misleading - There is no scientific proof that she will support at this time nor has offered to conduct for the better of Cancer Patients.
"No. Studies of alkaline diet are limited to animal and test tube trials. There's no scientific evidence at this time that alkaline diets are beneficial to humans."
Last edited by To Be Quite Honest; 07-28-2010 at 06:25 PM.
There's one form of woo that I've dealt with before, but haven't revisited. It's a bit of woo that's so monumentally silly that it's hard to believe that anyone can take it seriously, although I will admit up front that it is not quite as silly as homeopathy. It's close though. I'm talking, of course, about pH woo, the concept that pretty much every disease (or at least a whole heck of a lot of them) is caused by alterations in your blood pH, usually to the acid side, and that all you have to do to restore health is to "alkalinize your blood."
To be fair, the video he posted doesn't say that any that any disease is caused by eating an acidic diet. What it is claiming is that the body has to utilize its nutrients like calcium and iodine to bring the pH of stuff you eat up or down. I'm not so sure I buy that (since the body doesn't just take diet soda and inject it directly into the blood), but I wouldn't say it's total woo either, it seems plausible.
Orac is the nom de blog of a (not so) humble pseudonymous surgeon/scientist with an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his miscellaneous verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few will. (Continued here, along with a DISCLAIMER that you should read before reading any medical discussions here.)
DISCLAMER!!!! this blog is intended for discussion and entertainment purposes only and not as recommendations about how to diagnose or treat illnesses.
The guy is also not giving his real name...
ANY link to this site is a joke.
Completely wrong, Scienceblogs has many well respected scientists blogging on their site. The disclaimer is there because unlike a blogger talking about physics or biology, someone talking about medicine has a very real threat of potential lawsuits. And he explains why he posts under "Orac", hardly nefarious.
Plus discounting the argument because the poster is anonymous is fallacious.
Notice how you forgot to underline the part before entertainment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest
The bottom line is - do what you want. By talking vitamins regularly, and decreasing my meat intake greatly and increasing my veggies in addition to getting my sweat on daily, I have increased my health dramatically.
I don't think anyone would disagree with that at all, least of all doctors.
I don't see how questioning or establishing the veracity of the claim that taking in acidic foods can remove important nutrients from the body all of a sudden equates to saying that you don't need a healthy diet, lots of veggies, and periodic exercise...
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
In my experience, the range of health care modalities should be understood and applied each to the situation for which they are best suited. Mainstream medicine is best suited for emergent care or disease management (not resolution.) It currently is used as the "hammer" for all things health related and it just isn't suited for that since it is supported predominately by either pharmaceuticals or surgery - two very invasive techniques.
The "alternative" therapies, such as chiropractics, homeopathy, acupuncture, naturopathy, TCM, reiki, etc., are not satisfactorily scientifically proven because they don't necessarily follow scientific principles. Science is based on observations that can be measured or detected. If the therapy works at a level not yet able to be measured or detected through modern technology, you will only ever have anecdotal evidence to back it up.
I find it unfortunate that the scientific-based "mainstream" medical community (generally) offhandedly dismisses anything outside of their purview as "quackery" and potentially dangerous to people's health out of pure ignorance due to the faith put in their own systems of proof. If anything, they should be more concerned with the significantly greater (and scientifically-proven) negative impacts of their own chief modes of treatment, pharma and scalpels.
I'm not suggesting mainstream medicine is "evil" and should be avoided at all costs in favour of a certain alternative therapy. Just use it for the purposes to which it is best suited.
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I would like to call BS on this... I agree eating better is the key to better health, but the alkaline and acidic foods is a little more of a sales gimmick than fact. But I agree people should minimize pop, meats (but not too minimized), and eat more veggies. That makes sense.
here's my issues
1) Diet soda's weight gain properties are not linked to the pH, but more the artificial sweetners
2)pH does not mean the potential for hydrogen. it is the power of hydrogen which means the concentration of hydrogen on a log scale. And it is not a rating of 0-14. I think something as essential as their whole argument they should fact check a little
3)How is Iodine leached to buffer pH. The elements they listed Ca, Mg, etc can help spend acid, and they are all Cationic. i.e. the blood needs to raise the pH (more than normal) so it needs more have more carbonate and it gets that from calcium carbonate in the bones... how does it effect iodine, I do not know
4)Acid reflux is a digestion thing, not a body pH thing. It is your stomach acid burning the walls of the esophagus (it can happen from over eating, too much meat... many things... but not body pH). but they are right that changing your diet can help
5)Litmus strips for testing are not that accurate and saliva and urine pH are not good indications of blood pH
All this really says is eat better and you'll be healthier. I don't believe in their statements of disease only happens in an acidic body. your blood is buffered to a specific range... technically too much alkaline could kill you too
And don't get me started on people selling alkaline water.
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Last edited by Tiger; 07-28-2010 at 05:43 PM.
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A Government controlled broadcasting company. This link goes deep into the body explaining what's going on or as you quoted, "scientific evidence".
Stephanie Vangsness, R.D., L.D.N. has lied.
"No. Studies of alkaline diet are limited to animal and test tube trials. There's no scientific evidence at this time that alkaline diets are beneficial to humans."
The link explains how the body balances the pH, it doesn't say that pH is affected by diet or that a alkaline diet is or is not beneficial. It gives the causes for improper blood pH as respiratory or metabolic, not what you eat. What you eat may have an impact, I don't know, but this article doesn't say anything about it.
Also the processes that it says the body uses to balance pH do not involve any of the things the video mentions at all in fact, but the article doesn't mention how food is digested and for all I know acidic food must be neutralized before it can be entered into the intestines or something. But this article doesn't cover that.
But no, nothing in the article you listed indicates Stephanie Vangsness lied, because the article doesn't say anything about food or diet. Are you going to withdraw that libelous claim?
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
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The "alternative" therapies, such as chiropractics, homeopathy, acupuncture, naturopathy, TCM, reiki, etc., are not satisfactorily scientifically proven because they don't necessarily follow scientific principles. Science is based on observations that can be measured or detected. If the therapy works at a level not yet able to be measured or detected through modern technology, you will only ever have anecdotal evidence to back it up.
Lol wut? If a therapy works at a level not yet able to be measured, then it doesn't work.
How do you measure if it works.. people get better!
That's the whole point of proper trials.
How could you have a therapy that works that isn't detectable?
Scientist: So you had 500 people in the control group and 500 people getting the alternative treatment. How many controls got better?
Alternative Practitioner: 50.
Scientist: Great, how many getting the treatment got better?
Alternative Practitioner: 50.
Scientist: So there was no difference, the treatment doesn't work?
Alternative Practitioner: Oh it works, it just works at a level not able to be measured.
Scientist: ...
You don't have to know how a therapy works to be able to detect that it does work.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
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To be fair, the video he posted doesn't say that any that any disease is caused by eating an acidic diet. What it is claiming is that the body has to utilize its nutrients like calcium and iodine to bring the pH of stuff you eat up or down. I'm not so sure I buy that (since the body doesn't just take diet soda and inject it directly into the blood), but I wouldn't say it's total woo either, it seems plausible.
Thank you Photon
Quote:
Originally Posted by photon
Completely wrong, Scienceblogs has many well respected scientists blogging on their site. The disclaimer is there because unlike a blogger talking about physics or biology, someone talking about medicine has a very real threat of potential lawsuits. And he explains why he posts under "Orac", hardly nefarious.
It may have many well respected scientists but I politely disagree with you. It is important to have your name beside anything health care related. The disclaimer is the so they can discuss what ever they feel like. Orac is definitely irresponsible by not discussing who he is simply because of his stature and claims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by photon
Plus discounting the argument because the poster is anonymous is fallacious.
Notice how you forgot to underline the part before entertainment.
My reasoning is not flawed. I demand to know what a doctor's name is if he is claiming someone's work is bunk.
All you need is one clause or point to render everything else unimportant "For entertainment purposes only" is such a clause.
Quote:
Originally Posted by photon
I don't think anyone would disagree with that at all, least of all doctors.
I don't see how questioning or establishing the veracity of the claim that taking in acidic foods can remove important nutrients from the body all of a sudden equates to saying that you don't need a healthy diet, lots of veggies, and periodic exercise...
That's fine but WHY? Why are these foods harming us. This PH science helps to further explain and understand that.
But no, nothing in the article you listed indicates Stephanie Vangsness lied, because the article doesn't say anything about food or diet. Are you going to withdraw that libelous claim?
Nope, but I will adjust it (Stephanie Vangsness is misleading - There is no scientific proof that she will support at this time nor has offered to conduct for the better of Cancer Patients), the BBC article still supports my point. Our body must be at a proper PH balance. It talks about how PH is measured which was argued on a link troutman gave, saying it is impossible to measure your PH balance.
Our body must be at a proper PH balance. It talks about how PH is measured which was argued on a link troutman gave, saying it is impossible to measure your PH balance.
I don't think this point is argued. The body must be in a certain pH range or you'll die. But there is much more to it than Diet to control pH
__________________
It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
- Aristotle
The bottom line is - do what you want. By talking vitamins regularly, and decreasing my meat intake greatly and increasing my veggies in addition to getting my sweat on daily, I have increased my health dramatically.
Stop the presses.
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Just go to a Chinese health shop and look at all the ridiculous powders and vials of things claiming to help with a gambit of problems. How many animals are killed to fullfill this nonsense without a shred of evidence.
Most of the stuff are sold for food. Most of the stuff consist of:
Absurb varieties of Ginseng
Equally absurb varieties of the nest of a species of swallows
Abalone
Dried baby shrimp
Dried Scallops
Dried Oysters
Dried Swim Bladders
Mummified remains of a certain type of larvae that was killed by a certain type of Fungus
Orac is definitely irresponsible by not discussing who he is simply because of his stature and claims.
Orac's real name is pretty easy to find out though, and he does similar posts at Science-Based Medicine under his real name. Personally, given some of the recent tactics of certain alt-med types (suing anyone who criticizes them for libel, trying to get Orac fired from his real job, etc.) I don't blame him for using a pseudonym.
Orac's real name is pretty easy to find out though, and he does similar posts at Science-Based Medicine under his real name. Personally, given some of the recent tactics of certain alt-med types (suing anyone who criticizes them for libel, trying to get Orac fired from his real job, etc.) I don't blame him for using a pseudonym.
The bottom line is - do what you want. By talking vitamins regularly, and decreasing my meat intake greatly and increasing my veggies in addition to getting my sweat on daily, I have increased my health dramatically.
Yeah, and all of that, except for not eating meat, only requires a small amount of common sense.
In order to BE healthy, you have to eat healthy. What do ALL doctors recommend? More veggies, less saturated fat, less carbs, and take your vitamins.
Its not their fault people have gotten sidetracked from what is healthy and what isn't.
In my opinion, the key is to eat a traditional diet, and to avoid the western diet. Eat something that has been proven over centuries to be effective and healthy. Use veggies as the main course, meat as a flavour enhancer, and eat more oily fish.
Food Rules by Michael Pollan is a fantastic little manual with a "rule" on each page. Don't eat food with ingredients you wouldn't keep in your pantry. Don't eat food with ingredients your grandmother wouldn't recognize. Take as much time eating the food as it took to make it. Don't eat food that doesn't rot. Avoid food that has more than five ingredients (not counting recipes with natural ingredients). Don't eat cereals that change the colour of the milk, etc.
Any book by Michael Pollan is a great read.
Going away from the 'western diet' means you go away from fast food, junk food, microwave dinners, and back to the 'veggies, meat, fish, salad, dairy'.....meals.
I think 90% of the population would benefit from just eating like that.
To the people talking about changing the blood pH with diet: I suggest you read up on the chemistry of acid/base buffers. A buffer solution is a mixture of a weak acid/conjugate base or weak base/conjugate acid and, through somewhat complicated chemistry, allows the solution to take in a lot of acid or base with minimal changes to the pH of the system.
The human body is essentially a macroscale buffer system and is specifically designed to accommodate ingestion of any food source without significantly changing the chemistry of the body.
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It may have many well respected scientists but I politely disagree with you. It is important to have your name beside anything health care related. The disclaimer is the so they can discuss what ever they feel like. Orac is definitely irresponsible by not discussing who he is simply because of his stature and claims.
It's a blog, not a medical journal. The point is discussion of things, not to make medical statements. That's the whole point of the disclaimer, it's not an appropriate venue for actual medical diagnosis or advice. If someone read something and took it to be medical advice and had a problem, they would sue. If he was giving medical advice and then hiding behind the disclaimer then I would agree with you, but he's not, he's blogging on current events and information.
And as to having his name beside it, really he's not hiding, as he says you can figure out who he is pretty easily, it took me two minutes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest
My reasoning is not flawed. I demand to know what a doctor's name is if he is claiming someone's work is bunk.
What relevance does someone's name have with respect to the veracity of something?
Quote:
Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest
All you need is one clause or point to render everything else unimportant "For entertainment purposes only" is such a clause.
Right, because the discussion is for entertainment, it's not intended to be a medical journal to determine veracity, and it's not intended to give medical advice for people to make life altering decisions on.
That doesn't mean what's being said is or is not true. You and I are anonymous but we can still have a discussion about our positions on topics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest
That's fine but WHY? Why are these foods harming us. This PH science helps to further explain and understand that.
Different foods are harmful for different reasons, but you haven't established that acidic or alkaline food even changes blood pH, so to say pH science explains why foods are unhealthy is premature, at least in this discussion so far.
And the link you posted explains how the body balances out the pH, if you look at the chemical reactions I don't see anywhere in there that it is using Calcium or Iodine, so the idea that it takes nutrients away from the body to balance pH isn't supported by that article either; that too could be a bogus claim for all I know.
Which also raises the question of an alkaline diet being just as harmful, if one assumes that the body uses nutrients to bring "up" an acid, then you could also assume that the body uses different nutrients to bring "down" a base.
So to sum up the things that have to be established for this to have any merit:
a) that eating acidic or alkaline foods alters the blood pH
b) that the body "consumes" important nutrients to balance the blood's pH
c) that those nutrients are consumed to a significant degree
d) that an alkaline diet either does not consume other important nutrients, or that if it does the alkaline diet is more advantageous (i.e. consumes less nutrients, or ones that are more easily replaced, etc).
Quote:
Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest
Nope, but I will adjust it (Stephanie Vangsness is misleading - There is no scientific proof that she will support at this time nor has offered to conduct for the better of Cancer Patients)
That's not an adjustment, that's a complete change. I think you are being disingenuous. This is what you said:
Quote:
Stephanie Vangsness, R.D., L.D.N. has lied.
"No. Studies of alkaline diet are limited to animal and test tube trials. There's no scientific evidence at this time that alkaline diets are beneficial to humans."
You said she lied, and then you gave what you claim is the lie. You have not established that she in fact lied. To establish that she lied you must first establish that there is in fact evidence that alkaline diets are beneficial to humans, which you haven't done (all's you've done is shown that the body maintains a pH level). Second you have to establish that she knowingly ignored such evidence intentionally, so rather than just being mistaken, or ignorant of such evidence, that she intentionally ignored that evidence when making that statement.
We're waiting.
So now your adjustment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest
Stephanie Vangsness is misleading - There is no scientific proof that she will support at this time nor has offered to conduct for the better of Cancer Patients
So changing the statement to something completely irrelevant establishes diet having an impact on blood pH how exactly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest
the BBC article still supports my point. Our body must be at a proper PH balance.
I thought your point was that diet can impact your pH? No one is questioning that the body maintains a tight pH.
Quote:
Originally Posted by To Be Quite Honest
It talks about how PH is measured which was argued on a link troutman gave, saying it is impossible to measure your PH balance.
Um, what? I think you had better read again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by The BBC Article
If you need to have your blood gases or acid/base status measured, then a medical professional will need to take a sample of your arterial blood: an arterial blood gas (ABG).
Quote:
Originally Posted by The InteliHeath Article
Are Urine and Saliva pH Test Strips a Good Way To Measure the Body's pH?
The only way to directly measure the body's pH is by testing your blood. Testing your urine only tells you the pH of your urine. Urine is naturally more acidic and has a lower pH (~ 6.0). Similarly, saliva test strips only measure the pH of your saliva, not the pH of your blood.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Your Alkaline Video
Use Litmus strips to measure the pH of your saliva or urine.
So uh yeah, not only does troutman's link NOT say it's impossible to measure your pH, the link you provided agrees with it and both disagree with the video.
So after all that, we're still in agreement that a healthy diet is better for you, and we still don't have any evidence that an acidic diet is harmful.
__________________ Uncertainty is an uncomfortable position.
But certainty is an absurd one.
Last edited by photon; 07-28-2010 at 08:29 PM.
Reason: Formatting
One thing that annoyed me about that video was that he said all treatments of acid reflux are alkaline. Although pills like tums or maalox are alkaline (containing some sort of metal hydroxide compounds) a lot of medications are not. For example, omeprazole (prilosec) works by inhibiting the acid producing enzymes in the stomach. It literally stops the production of acid but doesn't neutralize it. I understand what the presenter is trying to say but I don't think he has a very good understanding of physiology and the chemistry of the body.
Also, photon touched on the litmus paper test he suggested which was down right ridiculous.
