U of C Abortion protests

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by peter12

Abortion to me is different. I really hesitate at calling it a private issue. While some women may say, "it's my body" and somehow insinuate that the fetus is an appendage or growth of their body, it's the same to me as the slaveowner saying "that man is my property." Some decisions aren't ours to make..

I've seen you try to draw this parallel twice now, and it's mind boggling.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

I've seen you try to draw this parallel twice now, and it's mind boggling.

I can't understand why. I am not saying that the mere act of having an abortion is akin to slavery, but that the way some people treat abortion is the same way that slaves were treated in the South. As in, he's not a man, he's my negro slave or it's not an individual human being but a lump of tissue that can be removed.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by peter12

As in, he's not a man, he's my negro slave or it's not an individual human being but a lump of tissue that can be removed.

Except one is obviously not true and one is very much up for debate?

You`re comparing black people to `lumps of tissue`.

I know it`s not what you mean, but you have to appreciate how bad that looks.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by evman150

Except one is obviously not true and one is very much up for debate?

You`re comparing black people to `lumps of tissue`.

I know it`s not what you mean, but you have to appreciate how bad that looks.

No, I'm not. I'm saying that the ethical perspective is very similar in my mind. Under the slavery regime in the South, black people were treated like lumps of tissue. Obviously, they aren't.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by peter12

No, I'm not. I'm saying that the ethical perspective is very similar in my mind. Under the slavery regime in the South, black people were treated like lumps of tissue. Obviously, they aren't.

Exactly, they`re obviously not.

But fetuses are! (Or at the very least are not obviously not)

You`re making my point for me.

[Cheese]

Checked stats and info on abortions in Canada:

Abortion was completely banned in Canada in 1869. As in other countries, illegal abortions were still performed, leading to the deaths of many women every year.

The court noted that it was mostly men that were deciding if a woman should have an abortion. Also, because some pro-life doctors would not take any case to a Therapeutic Abortion Committee, or would only take a very severe case, and because some of these doctors would not even refer a women to a doctor who would present the case to the TAC, there were barriers to women who wanted to have their applications considered by a TAC. It could take a long time for a woman to find a doctor that would take her case to the TAC. Finally, the TAC had to decide on each request for an abortion. These factors resulted in a time lag that meant that abortions were being performed much later than they could have been.

Over 110,000 abortions are performed in Canada every year, that represents a ratio of about 30 abortions to every 100 live births.

In Canada, Prior to 1969, taking steps to cause an abortion was an offence liable to life imprisonment.

In 1988, the Supreme Court of Canada decision in Her Majesty, The Queen in Right of Canada v. Dr. Henry Morgentaler, Dr. Leslie Frank Smoling and Dr. Robert Scott, indexed by the court as R. v. Morgentaler, declared this entire section to be of no force or effect because it was held to violate section 7 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Section 7 states that: “Everyone has the right to life, liberty, and the security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice.”

Abortions in Canada are legal for all females 12 years of age or older. Females aged 12 through to the age of majority do not require parental approval.

Abortions in Canada are provided on request and funded by Medicare, to Canadian citizens and permanent residents (as with most medical procedures) in hospitals across the country.

Third-trimester abortions are not generally available.

In a Léger poll taken September 2001, 46.6% of respondents say they are personally "for" abortion, while 37.6% say they are personally "against" abortion.

In a Léger poll taken January 2002, 47% of respondents said abortion was "not immoral," while 41.8% said it was.

In a poll conducted by the National Post in November 2002, 78% of respondents answered "yes" to the question: "Should women have complete freedom on their decision to have an abortion?".

In an April 2006 Leger poll, 34% of respondents said they found abortion "immoral," behind paedophilia, extramarital affair, prostitution, alcohol abuse, sexual relations before the age of 16, pornographic films and blasphemy.

Among provinces, British Columbia and Quebec have the highest percentage who are pro-choice, and the Prairies have the highest percentage who are pro-life.

In a June 2008 Angus Reid Strategies poll, almost half of respondents (46%) believe abortion should be permitted in all cases. Roughly one-in-five Canadians (19%) would subject abortion to greater restrictions than now, 22 per cent would allow the procedure only in cases such as rape, incest and to save the woman's life, and seven per cent would only permit abortion to save the woman's life.

Roman Catholic response

The Roman Catholic Church in Canada has been an outspoken critic of abortion. According to the Canadian Conference of Catholic Bishops, "Abortion is killing Canada's future". Catholics argue that human life begins at conception, not at birth, and that the unborn human being needs to be protected

[peter12]

Originally Posted by evman150

Exactly, they`re obviously not.

But fetuses are!

You`re making my point for me.

Well, I think you made your own point for yourself. Anyway, as this debate has proved time and time again, the partisans exhaust the issue and end at loggerheads.

It was at least pretty respectful and that's pretty great. I'm off to play video games or something now.

[evman150]

Originally Posted by peter12

It was at least pretty respectful and that's pretty great. I'm off to play video games or something now.

Ya me too. Entertaining usage of the last couple hours though.

[Thunderball]

Originally Posted by peter12

Dude, your libertarian streak should be screaming bloody murder. Life is important, no matter who it is. People with Down Syndrome or Autism are just as much a part of the human experience as people without these disorders.

As for the SSM vs Abortion debate, I don't think they are part of the same suite of issues. I have no problem with homosexuality and I have no problem with homosexual couples who wish to have the same taxation and legal rights extended to them. That is a private and individual right.

Abortion to me is different. I really hesitate at calling it a private issue. While some women may say, "it's my body" and somehow insinuate that the fetus is an appendage or growth of their body, it's the same to me as the slaveowner saying "that man is my property." Some decisions aren't ours to make.

Now of course, abortion does boil down to a choice that women will make. We should be careful to present a full range of options to pregnant women that include a lot of other things besides an abortion. We have a choice to do everything, doesn't mean we should do them.

Part of being truly free is the freedom from other people's moralities and sentiments though, that in my mind is the true essence of Liberty. Who is truly to say that abortion of a mentally disabled fetus is wrong? We as society may not like it, but thats as far as our rights go. We might think havin' "got dang queeers" walking around is detrimental to society and will destroy the family unit. Others feel the same about divorce. But again, that is as far as their rights go. Once they try to interfere with those rights, we consider them wrong and often, criminally liable.

As for basic abortion, the big question for me is, is it yet an autonomous life-form. The medical answer is technically not until 24 weeks, when it becomes viable for it to survive away from its mother. So, from my POV, post 24 week abortions are wrong. I would never do it past 24 weeks... hell, if I ever had to get one, it would likely be in the first 15 weeks, because that means contraception failed. Ethically, doctors tend to refuse third trimester abortions, largely on these grounds.

People talk about damage to the fabric of society. I once again raise this point. During the 1970s and 1980s, abortion rates rose dramatically... as these rates increased, crime began to drop. Why? Because less children were being born into desolate and miserable existences and being forced into crime. Crime that has tangible victims. Again, simply giving a child up for adoption is not an option either. People for some reason think it is. If that was the case, there would be no orphans around. Fact is, there are millions of unwanted children with no waiting adopters.

Lastly, the "Human Experience" is largely in the eye of the beholder.

To some, living with severe autism or down syndrome isn't life at all. It destroys marriages, mentally damages parents who aren't capable of coping, and puts a huge strain on everyone around them. Sentencing them to a life of suffering.

To others, life is sacrosanct, whether or not they are capable of stringing more than a single thought together, or whether or not they have a basic comprehension of the world, or regardless if a machine is keeping them alive. That is their CHOICE. A free society allows these choices without judgment.

[AFireInside]

I don't really understand pro-lifers.. How about if YOU don't want to get an abortion don't get one and leave everybody else alone. Fact of the matter is, its up to the woman, its HER body whether you like it or not.

Adoption simply isn't an a very good solution, kids don't get adopted, and get run through a foster system from family to family.(Clearly there are some great foster families out there, but there are bad ones as well.)

All you pro lifers better not be meat eaters either, because those animals have just as much right to live as a fetus does.

I guess for me, I don't walk around telling people what they can and can't do, I do not try and convince people to be pro choice, so why can't the pro life side do the same.

Also here's an example of an unwanted child.. Disgusting, disgusting story.

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...e-aec6524e1ac4

If an abortion prevents a couple of these stories a year I'm all for it.

[driveway]

Originally Posted by peter12

but that the way some people treat abortion is the same way that slaves were treated in the South. As in, he's not a man, he's my negro slave or it's not an individual human being but a lump of tissue that can be removed.

The major differences are as follows:

1. A slave is capable of survival outside of a womb; an embryo or fetus is not - until around 24 weeks, and only then with intense medical care.

2. The possession of a slave does not fundamentally alter the physical body of the possessor, nor is it a potential risk to the life of the possessor.

3. The possession of a slave does not, generally, require the complete re-arrangement of a persons life in order to properly care for said slave.

4. A slave is not necessarily a life-long commitment. Slaves, by their nature, can be bought and sold or exchanged as goods.

While I understand that the argument you are making is a moral one - that fetuses are regarded as not-human, much like slaves, you need to acknowledge is that there are identifiable, physiological differences between a fetus and a full-grown human.

Whether you view human potential as the same thing as actuality is a personal choice, but it is necessary to at least recognize that those people who do not have some sound arguments to back-up their position.

[Displaced Flames fan]

Here in Wichita, abortion protest hot spot for some reason, the Pro-Lifers like to hand out pictures of aborted fetuses to little kids. I kid you not.

I am no fan of abortion, I would discourage my daughter from taking that route, but I do not support pro-life organizations anymore than I support completely legal abortion with no restrictions.

The polarity of this issue is mind boggling to me. It's so obviously not black and white, but both sides pretend that it is.

I find pro-life activists to be among the most vile people I have ever encountered. Who gives a 4 year old a picture of an aborted fetus and justifies it with their idealogy? Sick.

[Ronald Pagan]

I haven't read through the thread but I assume that this is about the genocide awareness project?

Disgusting sexist and quasi-racist display.

[Rathji]

I am mostly against abortion except in cases where it is medically or emotionally necessary ( rape victim ), but I despise the way that these people do their displays at the University.

For me the real motivation is when my little girl comes up to my office, pushes open the door and says 'da'. If we couldn't handle raising her, I know there is someone else out there who would love to experience the same thing. It is alot to ask of someone to carry a child for 9 months only to give it up at the end of it all, so it is not like I expect everyone to do it.

I just know that I would encourage and facilitate, but not demand, any woman I know to carry the baby to term and give it up for adoption.

[Dartem]

Aborted fetuses make me hungry

[MoneyGuy]

nm

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Displaced Flames fan

Here in Wichita, abortion protest hot spot for some reason, the Pro-Lifers like to hand out pictures of aborted fetuses to little kids. I kid you not.

I am no fan of abortion, I would discourage my daughter from taking that route, but I do not support pro-life organizations anymore than I support completely legal abortion with no restrictions.

The polarity of this issue is mind boggling to me. It's so obviously not black and white, but both sides pretend that it is.

I find pro-life activists to be among the most vile people I have ever encountered. Who gives a 4 year old a picture of an aborted fetus and justifies it with their idealogy? Sick.

The same people who have no issue telling their children they will go to an eternal hell if they...lie/cheat/steal/become homosexual/become liberal/dont believe in the Lard Jesus etc etc etc.

[flip]

Originally Posted by peter12

Abortion to me is different. I really hesitate at calling it a private issue. While some women may say, "it's my body" and somehow insinuate that the fetus is an appendage or growth of their body, it's the same to me as the slaveowner saying "that man is my property." Some decisions aren't ours to make.

A better way to go about this argument would be to point out that the father should have a say in the abortion of the child.

The liken abortion to slavery just doesn't work in this case. You could however argue that there is a right held by the mother and father together to make that decision and not just the mother's alone as is the case now.

[Reaper]

Originally Posted by peter12

So should we extend this way of thinking to the mentally handicapped or chronically ill?

It must be hard to stand on that slippery slope on which you've decided to set up camp.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Reaper

It must be hard to stand on that slippery slope on which you've decided to set up camp.

My point is, to extend this way of thinking to one group of people, you have to be very wary of extending it to other groups of people. I'm not sure if you misunderstood me.