Oilers new arena design

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by New Era

Opportunity cost of what exactly? The tax that municipalities put into play to pay for these stadiums? Because they don't come out of operations or capital budgets.



Great summation and emotional plea to the jury, counselor, but I'd like to counter a few things. Education spending is restricted at the state, not at the local level. The money that pays for improvements in infrastructure is also controlled primarily by state and fed money. Healthcare is a complete red herring and municipalities do not pay for those services. As I previously stated, local tax payers end up paying for the new facility through a directly imposed tax or levy to support the building. That is the nice thing about politics down here, the municipality pays for stuff through bonds or directed taxes, so it is fleshed out and voted on by the people prior to spending begins.



Stadiums are the downfall of western society? Come on. This debate can get emotional, but that's a new extreme for this argument.

Opportunity cost is all around us. The money comes from us as a tax or otherwise. That money could go into anything else. It doesn't matter what level of government its going to, its coming from one source. Infrastructure, education, health, its all from the same pot - and it can only be taxed so much. Not to mention transfer payments.

I was mostly being overly dramatic for making the point; but go ask Greece what there problem is. Many point to the olympics as the nail in the coffin.

Of course, the olympics in Athens is minuscule compared to the amount owed, but it speaks to our society as a whole and what we spend money on.


ALSO, can we just move all the pro/con government spending arguments back to the CalgaryNEXT thread?

I would hate for everyone who actually provided sources in their arguments for why government funded private stadiums are a joke to have to re-post them on here just to argue with the same people from that thread.

[-TC-]

Originally Posted by Locke

I can see that, they're getting that arena, but at the end of the day I'm not jealous of the absolute fleecing that they City of Edmonton took.

The Oilers get nice, shiny new digs and the City and Citizens get a nice fat bill to pay for the foreseeable future. Thanks but no thanks. I like the Flames but I love Calgary.

Yeah....no.

That's fallacious, there is no 'big, fat, bill'.

http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...agreement.aspx

Further, the project has driven billions in additional development downtown, a lot of which is residential, which will in turn build the tax base, increase density and create a more active, liveable downtown. Something Edmonton sorely needs.


As the construction nears completion, we are really starting to see what it will look like and it looks pretty awesome. The pedway connecting the building to the forthcoming Winter Garden is going to be a really cool feature.

I've already got tickets to an event the month it opens, can't wait.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by -TC-

Yeah....no.

That's fallacious, there is no 'big, fat, bill'.

http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...agreement.aspx

Further, the project has driven billions in additional development downtown, a lot of which is residential, which will in turn build the tax base, increase density and create a more active, liveable downtown. Something Edmonton sorely needs.


As the construction nears completion, we are really starting to see what it will look like and it looks pretty awesome. The pedway connecting the building to the forthcoming Winter Garden is going to be a really cool feature.

I've already got tickets to an event the month it opens, can't wait.

Hopefully on your way to the event your car doesn't fall into one of the giant pot holes that line every street in that city. I think the entire edmonton road repair budget for the last few years got rolled into Katz's pockets somehow in this deal.

[jmac98]

Originally Posted by -TC-

Yeah....no.

That's fallacious, there is no 'big, fat, bill'.
.

Bloody hell. I just blew on my phone 3 times before realizing that's your avatar.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Opportunity cost is all around us. The money comes from us as a tax or otherwise. That money could go into anything else. It doesn't matter what level of government its going to, its coming from one source. Infrastructure, education, health, its all from the same pot - and it can only be taxed so much. Not to mention transfer payments.

I was mostly being overly dramatic for making the point; but go ask Greece what there problem is. Many point to the olympics as the nail in the coffin.

Of course, the olympics in Athens is minuscule compared to the amount owed, but it speaks to our society as a whole and what we spend money on.


ALSO, can we just move all the pro/con government spending arguments back to the CalgaryNEXT thread?

I would hate for everyone who actually provided sources in their arguments for why government funded private stadiums are a joke to have to re-post them on here just to argue with the same people from that thread.

lol

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by -TC-

Yeah....no.

That's fallacious, there is no 'big, fat, bill'.

http://www.edmonton.ca/city_governme...agreement.aspx

Further, the project has driven billions in additional development downtown, a lot of which is residential, which will in turn build the tax base, increase density and create a more active, liveable downtown. Something Edmonton sorely needs.


As the construction nears completion, we are really starting to see what it will look like and it looks pretty awesome. The pedway connecting the building to the forthcoming Winter Garden is going to be a really cool feature.

I've already got tickets to an event the month it opens, can't wait.

Without getting into arguments about substitution and multipliers with respect to the other developments, we can just focus on the cost.

A ticket tax is a tax, but we will ignore that too, because that will lead to further debate.

So, in terms of direct government funding Edmonton/Alberta/Canada is paying $320 million in tax dollars for the project (arena, winter garden, pedestrian corridor, LRT connection, community arena, and arena land.

320M is not going to bankrupt the City of Edmonton. The Alberta Government restrict the amounts that a City can pay on debt servicing, meaning cities are somewhat restricted on what they can borrow.

Edmonton's projected 2016 debt to be 2.9 billion.

In 2013, $11 of every $157 in property taxes paid went to debt repayment. Obviously not enough to pay down the debt but certainly reasonable debt servicing, according to counsel, to pay it back (especially with low interest rates).

The City is using debt financing, like a business to build what is sees as key infrastructure.

There is no denying that Edmonton, like Calgary, has some pretty big infrastructure issues. They lack any semblance of public transportation outside of the limited LRT and bus service, Whitemud is crap. the road system is not adaptable to a growing city, and they, like us lack multipurpose rec centres.

The opportunity cost issue is important in this sense. South LRT estimate pegs it at 409M, they have estimated whitemud upgrades around 150M. rec centres a further 200M, and the north LRT something close to 100M

So spending 300M on an arena, could cost Edmonton a project or two above, or most likely delay that project. The average Edmontonian (not average Oilers fan) would agree that these projects are key infrastructure projects, probably moreso than an arena, or even DT revitalization.

That is the argument regarding opportunity cost.

This isnt to say the Edmontonians made a bad bet, or that the City is screwing itself and soon Edmonton will move into an even more distopian reality, but it does raise issues with how money is being spent, and the want to have tax dollars going to beneficial things, whatever you or I may argue that is.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

lol

I know, hilarious right?

http://www.news.com.au/sport/sports-...93ff12e74b1b72

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...reeces-decline

http://www.politico.eu/article/how-t...rotted-greece/

http://adst.org/2015/07/the-greek-de...d-it-get-here/

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Cappy

I know, hilarious right?

http://www.news.com.au/sport/sports-...93ff12e74b1b72

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...reeces-decline

http://www.politico.eu/article/how-t...rotted-greece/

http://adst.org/2015/07/the-greek-de...d-it-get-here/

Fun headlines. And people love to make these types of linear links.

But the Olympics were merely one shopping spree from a country that had decades of systemic indifference towards any kind of fiscal responsibility.

Using the numbers from one of your links, the Olympics may have cost more than $7B (others disagree because the tourism dollars are large and difficult to quantify).

Regardless, the debt (from the same article) sat at $350B. And that may understate it. Greece was a mess before the Olympics, and would be in exactly the same position right now, with or without them.

More to the point, my lol was in reference to the fact that first, you were making the argument that money is money. And then you called the Olympics the nail in the coffin for Greece.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Opportunity cost is all around us. The money comes from us as a tax or otherwise. That money could go into anything else. It doesn't matter what level of government its going to, its coming from one source. Infrastructure, education, health, its all from the same pot - and it can only be taxed so much. Not to mention transfer payments.

You're ignoring the fact that much of the money that would go to this project is only earmarked for large scale projects like this, or come from a specific tax that is only used to support this venture. There is no general pot where monies would be diverted to support this project over general projects that are on-going. I don't think you may need to bone up on how taxation works.

I was mostly being overly dramatic for making the point; but go ask Greece what there problem is. Many point to the olympics as the nail in the coffin.

Greece was screwed regardless of the Olympics. And yes, you were being dramatic. That was obvious, and it didn't help your case.

Of course, the olympics in Athens is minuscule compared to the amount owed, but it speaks to our society as a whole and what we spend money on.

You mean like tax breaks for the rich, allowing corporations to skip out on tax bills altogether, or even giving them massive refunds on taxes they never paid? You're right, we spend our money on some really stupid things that only benefit the few rather than the many. I guess it just depends on who should gain benefit from the money being spent? The uber rich or the general public.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Hopefully on your way to the event your car doesn't fall into one of the giant pot holes that line every street in that city. I think the entire edmonton road repair budget for the last few years got rolled into Katz's pockets somehow in this deal.

You are right about the roads but the thing is Edmonton roads have always been poorly maintained. To say the arena has or will have any impact on road maintenance in Edmonton is like telling a person that has terminal cancer that smoking a cigarette will kill them.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You are right about the roads but the thing is Edmonton roads have always been poorly maintained. To say the arena has or will have any impact on road maintenance in Edmonton is like telling a person that has terminal cancer that smoking a cigarette will kill them.

Very much agreed. Stretches all the way back to the 90's.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

You are right about the roads but the thing is Edmonton roads have always been poorly maintained. To say the arena has or will have any impact on road maintenance in Edmonton is like telling a person that has terminal cancer that smoking a cigarette will kill them.

You're probably right. I (very fortunately) don't have to go to edmonton much any more, so when I was there recently I was shocked at the condition of the roads. If Pylon wants to give his new Jeep a true off road challenge, I recommend Wayne Gretzky Drive.

[Dan02]

Last time I was up visiting relatives in Edmonton the road infront of their house was more potholes then it was road.

[Ruttiger]

Originally Posted by Dan02

Last time I was up visiting relatives in Edmonton the road infront of their house was more potholes then it was road.

Sort of like the Oilers path to respectability.......gallows humour is what I cling to.

[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by New Era

You're ignoring the fact that much of the money that would go to this project is only earmarked for large scale projects like this, or come from a specific tax that is only used to support this venture. There is no general pot where monies would be diverted to support this project over general projects that are on-going. I don't think you may need to bone up on how taxation works.

Greece was screwed regardless of the Olympics. And yes, you were being dramatic. That was obvious, and it didn't help your case.

You mean like tax breaks for the rich, allowing corporations to skip out on tax bills altogether, or even giving them massive refunds on taxes they never paid? You're right, we spend our money on some really stupid things that only benefit the few rather than the many. I guess it just depends on who should gain benefit from the money being spent? The uber rich or the general public.

Do you actually think there is a special arena tax fund that is only available for the arena? Interesting, do you think there is a red light fund for traffic lights too?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Do you actually think there is a special arena tax fund that is only available for the arena? Interesting, do you think there is a red light fund for traffic lights too?

No, it obviously comes out of FICA taxes. I mean all taxes just end up in the same general pot and are spent recklessly. In that same breath, I guess we can blame the short fall in healthcare spending on stadium sales and use taxes just not collecting enough to finance better services.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Fun headlines. And people love to make these types of linear links.

But the Olympics were merely one shopping spree from a country that had decades of systemic indifference towards any kind of fiscal responsibility.

Using the numbers from one of your links, the Olympics may have cost more than $7B (others disagree because the tourism dollars are large and difficult to quantify).

Regardless, the debt (from the same article) sat at $350B. And that may understate it. Greece was a mess before the Olympics, and would be in exactly the same position right now, with or without them.

More to the point, my lol was in reference to the fact that first, you were making the argument that money is money. And then you called the Olympics the nail in the coffin for Greece.

Ill admit "nail in a coffin" was a poor choice of words, certainly. But, I dont think it changes the fact that the olympics were a piss poor investment just like everything else Greece spent their money on, and that many will point to the olympics to show this type of reckless spending is certainly damaging to a governments bottom line.

Oh its only 7 billion out of 350, doesn't make spending that money any better. neither does 7 million out of 350 million. Or 400 million out of 4 billion (calgary's 2015 debt)

I feel like its the same 6 people constantly arguing this issue, and Im not going to lie, its annoying.

[SebC]

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Cappy

They were a piss poor investment just like everything else greece spent their money on.

Oh its only 7 billion out of 350, doesn't make spending that money any better.

I feel like its the same 6 people constantly arguing this issue, and Im not going to lie, its annoying.

So you (in your own words) overdramatize your entire Greek argument to try and float the same old ad nauseam argument that public funding for facilities is bad for cities despite no real evidence that such spending has crippled any city or caused hardship for citizens. I feel like it's the same 6 people constantly arguing this issue and I'm not going to lie, it's annoying.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

So you (in your own words) overdramatize your entire Greek argument to try and float the same old ad nauseam argument that public funding for facilities is bad for cities despite no real evidence that such spending has crippled any city or caused hardship for citizens. I feel like it's the same 6 people constantly arguing this issue and I'm not going to lie, it's annoying.

All I am saying is that we are just adding the same debate from CalgaryNEXT to here. It dileneates into an argument for and against spending money on these projects.

Obviously I am not changing my viewpoint on this matter. I think the evidence is out there that these projects do not provide the benefits they suggest. I have relayed that information in the CalgaryNEXT thread. You can choose to dispute that information, which is entirely fine.

I do not think us bringing this argument to this thread is dramatically adding anything but us just re-hashing the same. I'm sure it's annoying to everyone and most people have already made up their mind on this subject so who are we all really trying to convince?

I'm certainly not going to convince you, or New Era, or Enoch, so why bother responding? So I'm not going to anymore.

As soon as something fundamental breaks about CalgaryNEXT we are all just wasting our time, and productivity to try an win an internet fight with people that we don't know and don't really care about.