Obama's Abortion Stance

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Bagor

I'm no expert on US politics.

What exactly does voting present mean? Is it the same as abstaining?

I'm thinking it is.

Reading the article...

The dispute flared again last week when a leading opponent of legalized abortion, the National Right to Life Committee, posted records from the Illinois Legislature showing that Mr. Obama, while chairman of a Senate committee, in 2003, voted against a "Born Alive" bill that contained nearly identical language to the federal bill that passed unanimously, including the provision limiting its scope.


The group says the documents prove Mr. Obama misrepresented his record.
Indeed, Mr. Obama appeared to misstate his position in the CBN interview on Saturday when he said the federal version he supported "was not the bill that was presented at the state level."


His campaign yesterday acknowledged that he had voted against an identical bill in the state Senate, and a spokesman, Hari Sevugan, said the senator and other lawmakers had concerns that even as worded, the legislation could have undermined existing Illinois abortion law. Those concerns did not exist for the federal bill, because there is no federal abortion law.


In 2005, the campaign noted, a "Born Alive" bill passed the Illinois Legislature after another clause had been added that explicitly stated that the legislation would have no effect on existing state abortion laws.
Told of the campaign's explanation, the legislative director of the National Right to Life Committee, Douglas Johnson, was dubious. "These are newly manufactured and highly implausible excuses," he said. "There is no way that the bill would have had any effect on any method of abortion." Mr. Johnson said the version Mr. Obama voted down clearly applied only to fetuses that emerged from the womb alive.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by mikey_the_redneck

More unwanted or unplanned kids means more social/money problems for everyone. If a poor/hooker/drug addict/teenager/immature/######ed person is not ready for a child, I say it's their choice to abort the pregnancy. People want abortions for a reason, because they do not have the means to raise a child.

Then a poor/hooker/drug addict/teenager/immature/######ed person shouldn't be taking the 'chance' of having a baby, and use the proper methods to NOT have one.

Abortion should never EVER be an easy way out for the people that don't even TRY to use protection.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

Then a poor/hooker/drug addict/teenager/immature/######ed person shouldn't be taking the 'chance' of having a baby, and use the proper methods to NOT have one.

Abortion should never EVER be an easy way out for the people that don't even TRY to use protection.

Yeah, that's all well and good, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation. It has happened. It shouldn't have, but it did, and there they are with a person growing insided them.

And how do you know they didn't try?

Funny thing about all this (and it may be a generalization, so if it doesn't apply to anyone, let me know) but it seems to me that the most strident anti-choice people are usually quite conservative, and they are against other things like comprehensive sex education, drug treatment programs that don't send someone to jail, and welfare programs.

In other words, "don't teach kids about sex, don't let them have an abortion if they get knocked up, and for crying out loud, get them off welfare, because if they can't afford to have a kid, they shouldn't have had one in the first place, even though I insisted that they have the kid in the first place".

[Displaced Flames fan]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Yeah, that's all well and good, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation. It has happened. It shouldn't have, but it did, and there they are with a person growing insided them.

And how do you know they didn't try?

Funny thing about all this (and it may be a generalization, so if it doesn't apply to anyone, let me know) but it seems to me that the most strident anti-choice people are usually quite conservative, and they are against other things like comprehensive sex education, drug treatment programs that don't send someone to jail, and welfare programs.

In other words, "don't teach kids about sex, don't let them have an abortion if they get knocked up, and for crying out loud, get them off welfare, because if they can't afford to have a kid, they shouldn't have had one in the first place, even though I insisted that they have the kid in the first place".

That's very true, but it goes both ways.

The most staunch pro-choicers are the same people who defer to science on environmental issues, evolution in school etc. yet try to claim that life doesn't begin until a baby takes a breath. How scientific is that observation?

I guess those two situations are why I enjoy my position firmly in between both sets of yahoos!

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Yeah, that's all well and good, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation. It has happened. It shouldn't have, but it did, and there they are with a person growing insided them.

And how do you know they didn't try?

Funny thing about all this (and it may be a generalization, so if it doesn't apply to anyone, let me know) but it seems to me that the most strident anti-choice people are usually quite conservative, and they are against other things like comprehensive sex education, drug treatment programs that don't send someone to jail, and welfare programs.

In other words, "don't teach kids about sex, don't let them have an abortion if they get knocked up, and for crying out loud, get them off welfare, because if they can't afford to have a kid, they shouldn't have had one in the first place, even though I insisted that they have the kid in the first place".

See, I don't take that position.

Education is the way to solve this 'problem'.....and I wish more emphasis would be put into that, than telling pregnant teenagers that they don't have to take responsibility for their actions. Which is exactly what abortion has become for some.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Azure

...shouldn't be taking the 'chance' of having a baby, and use the proper methods to NOT have one.

"... the typical male will still say if she don't wanna get pregnant then she shouldn't spread her legs" - Typical Male, Consolidated

Seriously, dude. Given the pressure that men put on women to have sex, we can't seriously be saying that it is all their fault when they get pregnant. For every abortion, there is one guy that ed up as well.

I mean, I'm watching a documentary going into the inner cities talking to impoverished women with multiple children and one woman says "Well, the pill makes me sick and Jimmy won't use a condom. Says he gets no feel with one on. He tries to pull out in time, but that just don't work sometimes." Just that one segment had so much in it.... #1, we're typically not dealing with the most educated people here. They often don't know all their options for birth control. #2, Men will put their dick feeling good well above the concern of getting a woman pregnant, because if it happens, they can just skip town.

[Devils'Advocate]

Originally Posted by Azure

Education is the way to solve this 'problem'.....and I wish more emphasis would be put into that, than telling pregnant teenagers that they don't have to take responsibility for their actions. Which is exactly what abortion has become for some.

Okay. I'm good with that. However, there are limits. I mean, we have been pumping a *LOT* of resources into getting kids to stop street racing... bringing cops into the schools, having people that have been injured street racing come in and talk.....

... and yet it's not making a dent. Getting teenagers to take responsibility seems to be akin to Sisyphus and his boulder.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

"... the typical male will still say if she don't wanna get pregnant then she shouldn't spread her legs" - Typical Male, Consolidated

Seriously, dude. Given the pressure that men put on women to have sex, we can't seriously be saying that it is all their fault when they get pregnant. For every abortion, there is one guy that ed up as well.

I mean, I'm watching a documentary going into the inner cities talking to impoverished women with multiple children and one woman says "Well, the pill makes me sick and Jimmy won't use a condom. Says he gets no feel with one on. He tries to pull out in time, but that just don't work sometimes." Just that one segment had so much in it.... #1, we're typically not dealing with the most educated people here. They often don't know all their options for birth control. #2, Men will put their dick feeling good well above the concern of getting a woman pregnant, because if it happens, they can just skip town.

And in turn the woman will get an abortion, saving everyone from the heartache.

But either way, you are right, and I agree with you. But I still feel that teaching people how to be responsible, and educating them on birth control, etc, etc should be put above telling them they don't have to take responsibility for their screwup, just because they wanted 'to feel good.'

Honestly, I still believe that you should have the right to do with your body what YOU want, provided YOU deal with the consequences. And by saying that, how can I honestly argue from anything but a moral viewpoint that abortion is wrong? Some people don't look at it that way, and because there really isn't any scientific evidence to prove when 'life' begins, well all we're left with is my 'opinion.'

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Okay. I'm good with that. However, there are limits. I mean, we have been pumping a *LOT* of resources into getting kids to stop street racing... bringing cops into the schools, having people that have been injured street racing come in and talk.....

... and yet it's not making a dent. Getting teenagers to take responsibility seems to be akin to Sisyphus and his boulder.

Well, in a perfect world it starts at home, with your parents.

Not saying that schools shouldn't try to teach kids, but I've been through DARE class before, and it didn't mean a thing to me. Rather, what my parents taught me about drugs/alchohol, etc, etc....well, that made more sense.

So if parents teach their kids essentially nothing about 'sex'....well, you'll most likely face a screwup later on.

[Devils'Advocate]

At home, most girls get "DON'T HAVE SEX!!!!". And there ends the course on sexual education.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Azure

Then a poor/hooker/drug addict/teenager/immature/######ed person shouldn't be taking the 'chance' of having a baby, and use the proper methods to NOT have one.

Abortion should never EVER be an easy way out for the people that don't even TRY to use protection.

Great, fantastic!

Now go tell that to the religious conservatives (the same religious conservatives who are the most vocal opponents to abortion ) to stop their crusade against comprehensive sex education which includes instruction about the effective use of contraceptives.

You can't accuse teenagers of being irresponsible for not using birth control when they were never taught how to acquire and use it in the first place.

A personal anecdote:

About five years ago when I was with my ex-girlfriend, we had a condom break on us one night. We didn't realize it had happened until it was too late. Luckily she was able to get a prescription for the morning-after pill prescribed and filled the next day, but many of the "teenage/immature/######ed" people you're ranting against don't even know that pill exists, since their teachers were not permitted to teach them what it is and how to get it.

The most staunch pro-choicers are the same people who defer to science on environmental issues, evolution in school etc. yet try to claim that life doesn't begin until a baby takes a breath. How scientific is that observation?

I don't know any scientifically-minded people who think that an infant isn't alive until it has emerged from the womb and breathing on its own. That sounds like a classic strawman argument used by pro-lifers to exaggerate the claims of their opponents. Obviously at a certain period of its gestation period, when all its organs are fully-functional, you can clearly call a fetus alive.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by Azure

See, I don't take that position.

Education is the way to solve this 'problem'.....and I wish more emphasis would be put into that, than telling pregnant teenagers that they don't have to take responsibility for their actions. Which is exactly what abortion has become for some.

I agree with education but unfortunately many who are pro-life don't promote sex education and rather preach abstinence along with condonning all forms of birth control. Ideally, all kids would wait until they were in a loving committed relationship. Being a parent that would be my first choice. Reality is that kids are kids. Kids have hormones, peer pressure etc. and many learn todays social issues from friends not parents. Kids are going to have sex whether parents/adults/church members etc. like it or not.

Also, a large percentage of abortions as stated many times in this thread are from healthy parents who already have children that don't want more kids. This is a fact. These folks are well eductated on sex. Many want to believe the majority are from single parents, teens, street addicts, low lifes, sick mothers etc. but that's not the case.

Also, let's keep Obama/McCain out of this issue. It's not rocket science that Democrats = Pro-Choice and Republicans = Pro-Life minus the odd exceptions. The far left will also vote for their candidate and the far right will always vote the other way. The majority of the voters are in between and this is only one issue of many important to them. Right now I am guessing the economy and Iraq War is by far a bigger issue than abortion rights for the majority of the voters.

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by Azure

Then a poor/hooker/drug addict/teenager/immature/######ed person shouldn't be taking the 'chance' of having a baby, and use the proper methods to NOT have one.

Abortion should never EVER be an easy way out for the people that don't even TRY to use protection.

um... so you are basing your pro-life stance on us as a society need to rely on hookers/junkies/teenagers/mentally disabled ppl to be responsible? Sounds fantastic sign me up. Let's let them do my accounting as well.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

At home, most girls get "DON'T HAVE SEX!!!!". And there ends the course on sexual education.

Sad, but true.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Sowa

um... so you are basing your pro-life stance on us as a society need to rely on hookers/junkies/teenagers/mentally disabled ppl to be responsible? Sounds fantastic sign me up. Let's let them do my accounting as well.

Nah, it was just a retort based on what mickey said.

I'm pro-life, sure. As in, my moral viewpoint on abortion. Doesn't mean I think that viewpoint should be forced upon anyone else. By law, or any other way.

[MarchHare]

I'm pro-life, sure. As in, my moral viewpoint on abortion. Doesn't mean I think that viewpoint should be forced upon anyone else. By law, or any other way.

So you're pro-choice then. Being pro-choice does not mean being pro-abortion, it just means that you allow everyone to choose what they think is best for themselves.

[pepper24]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm pro-life, sure. As in, my moral viewpoint on abortion. Doesn't mean I think that viewpoint should be forced upon anyone else. By law, or any other way.

Wouldn't that be pro-choice?

[Blaster86]

Personally I just think Azure likes to argue

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by pepper24

Wouldn't that be pro-choice?

Pro-life is a dodgy and politically loaded (for a reason) term. Everyone is pro-life.

I'm "pro-life" and "anti-abortion" and "pro-choice" all at the same time. I like life, I don't like that abortions happen, it's not my choice.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

Personally I just think Azure likes to argue

Hah.

Granted, I do intentionally disagree at times just to keep the discussion going, but come on.