Conservative Leadership Debate: Who's the Next Premier of Alberta?

[moon]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

But more people selected Stelmach as their first choice than either Morton or Dinning...so that statement simply isn't true.

No some people did want Stelmach that is true, but I think many of the people who chose Stelmach as a first did so because they didn't want either Dinning or Morton in moreso than wanting Stelmach. He recieved 15% of the vote on teh first ballot so he wasn't exactly a overwhelming choice for Premier going into this second ballot.

He won congrats to him, too bad for the PC's, even with those first choice votes I woder how many were because of his views and how many because people, especially in Edmonton and non-conservative supporters who bought memberships solely to vote, did not want Dinning or Morton to win and Stelmach was the only other choice.

Basically how much was Stelmach votes because of him compared to if it were Oberg or Hancock or Jiri Hirdina running against Morton and Dinning.

[Winsor_Pilates]

Quite the shocker. I didn't think this guy stood a chance. I havn't even heard him talk.

IMO fear mongering one this one (yes.. conservatives fear monger too).
Mortons crew scared people into thinking Dinning is a Lib. Dinnings crew scared people into thinking Morton's too far right.

Net result= A bunch of scared people vote for the middle

[Natt]

Originally Posted by Rockin' Flames

Well first of all it's too late because Dinning is out and Stelmach is in.

Second of all why is Alberta having its own police force so scary considering Ontario already has it's own police force.

Thirdly, this refusal of same sex marriage does not mean that same sex people wouldn't be able to get married in the province

Finally, what is wrong with promoting Alberta over Ottawa (after all Quebec seems to do a pretty good job at this and yet I don't hear people calling them scary).

I've always had a problem with promoting one province over another. I never agreed when Quebec was doing it, I don't agree when Alberta does it either.

Secondly, I don't care if people can get married in other provinces. I live here and I am not comfortable living in a province that goes against my moral beliefs. But I guess that's why I have the choice to vote for who I want to lead my province.

Thirdly, another thing I forgot to mention, I am also against the privatization of health care, which Morton also supports.

So basically, I disagree with most of Morton's platforms. I don't see the logic in supporting somebody I don't agree with.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by moon

But how will a conservative party stay in power if they being to alienate the socially conservative voters, mainly out west, if they start to change their views. Moving more center opens up the door to another Reform type party starting. It is a tightrope that they have to walk. All I am saying is moving furhter central to me seems to make them the Liberals of of the early 90's and we saw how that played out west. It may not happen all at once but if Harper is replaced by a moderate and the party starts shifting from its social conservatism too much I could see another grassroots movement starting.

Don't underestimate the voting power of all the new people that are moving into this province. Many of them come from relatively left-leaning parts of the country or world, and will bring along their political views and beliefs. As Calgary and Edmonton become bigger players on the international scene (as they often claim to be doing), they will get a much wider cross-section of immigrants and newcomers. I know many people around here dont like that (there seem to be a couple of fuming posters on this board that appear to want to get the lynch mob ready), but that's what happens when a city starts to grow up....more opinions and choice.

As well, I think young people these days are much more liberal in their social views than their parents. I think every generation tends to be more open than the last in regards to acceptance, so Im not sure if some of the morality issues that right-wingers are pushing will be as important to a lot of younger people as they grow into roles of leadership. There will of course be other hot-button issues that develop, but as a straight, calgary-raised 25 year old of parents who've voted PC provincially and nationally for a long long time, I have absolutely no desire to dictate which genders can have sex or get married. That's not my business, and I really dont even think about it when deciding who to vote for.

The environment to me is what morals is to an older generation. More and more, it becomes my biggest voting decider....and I have a feeling with the way things are going, it will become a much bigger one for young people everywhere.

[llama64]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Don't underestimate the voting power of all the new people that are moving into this province. Many of them come from relatively left-leaning part of the country or world, and will bring along their political views and beliefs. As Calgary and Edmonton become bigger players on the international scene (as they often claim to be doing), they will get a much wider cross-section of immigrants and newcomers. I know many people around here dont like that (there seem to be a couple of fuming posters on this board that appear to want to get the lynch mob ready), but that's what happens when a city starts to grow up....more opinions and choice.

I hope you are right. I was beginning to get annoyed at the one dimensionality of Alberta and it's politics. Many of us (primarilly in the city) are not hardline social conservatives. I want to see a party that takes a (small 'L') liberal view on social issues and a conservative view on finances. Still waiting for this party to form.

Glad to see Stelmach get the nod. Morton would have misrepresented Alberta and thrown a few wrenches into the growth of power we are seeing for the West in the country. Dinning had been laying his roots and support for far to long... who knows what he owed to people.

First Dion, now Stelmach... Seems the day of the underdogs.

[Cheese]

Bravo to Albertans for rejecting the far right in Morton. I feel Dinning was the right choice but Stelmach is a far better choice than Morton.
Morton's defeat sends a clear message to the P.M.O.: Canadians will not tolerate a swing to the far right (and Christian right).

Bravo Alberta....well done!

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Don't underestimate the voting power of all the new people that are moving into this province. Many of them come from relatively left-leaning parts of the country or world, and will bring along their political views and beliefs. As Calgary and Edmonton become bigger players on the international scene (as they often claim to be doing), they will get a much wider cross-section of immigrants and newcomers. I know many people around here dont like that (there seem to be a couple of fuming posters on this board that appear to want to get the lynch mob ready), but that's what happens when a city starts to grow up....more opinions and choice.

As well, I think young people these days are much more liberal in their social views than their parents. I think every generation tends to be more open than the last in regards to acceptance, so Im not sure if some of the morality issues that right-wingers are pushing will be as important to a lot of younger people as they grow into roles of leadership. There will of course be other hot-button issues that develop, but as a straight, calgary-raised 25 year old of parents who've voted PC provincially and nationally for a long long time, I have absolutely no desire to dictate which genders can have sex or get married. That's not my business, and I really dont even think about it when deciding who to vote for.

The environment to me is what morals is to an older generation. More and more, it becomes my biggest voting decider....and I have a feeling with the way things are going, it will become a much bigger one for young people everywhere.

Well said Table5. I dont think a voters mentality has anything to do with their age if their eyes are wide open. I too was a PC, but rejected them for their hard right turn with Preacher Manning, years ago. Many of my age have done the same thing. You are right on about the fact that as the province grows political ideals will as well....and quite frankly those ideals in a much larger urban setting are usually more liberal.
The Cons have great economic ideas...its the rest that makes it hard to swallow. Time for a move closer to the centre.

[Stranger]

I just glad Dinning didn't win. Anyone who put his support behind Paul Martin can't be trusted.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Don't underestimate the voting power of all the new people that are moving into this province. Many of them come from relatively left-leaning parts of the country or world, and will bring along their political views and beliefs. As Calgary and Edmonton become bigger players on the international scene (as they often claim to be doing), they will get a much wider cross-section of immigrants and newcomers. I know many people around here dont like that (there seem to be a couple of fuming posters on this board that appear to want to get the lynch mob ready), but that's what happens when a city starts to grow up....more opinions and choice.

As well, I think young people these days are much more liberal in their social views than their parents. I think every generation tends to be more open than the last in regards to acceptance, so Im not sure if some of the morality issues that right-wingers are pushing will be as important to a lot of younger people as they grow into roles of leadership. There will of course be other hot-button issues that develop, but as a straight, calgary-raised 25 year old of parents who've voted PC provincially and nationally for a long long time, I have absolutely no desire to dictate which genders can have sex or get married. That's not my business, and I really dont even think about it when deciding who to vote for.

The environment to me is what morals is to an older generation. More and more, it becomes my biggest voting decider....and I have a feeling with the way things are going, it will become a much bigger one for young people everywhere.

I have seen a number of new Canadians/Calgarians quickly move to the side of the Conservatives as well. Also, I still think I am relatively young, 27, and am very right wing and have several friends that are right wing as well. While I agree that there are probably more liberal leaning people amongst these two groups, I wouldn't overestimate the impact of these people in changing the political power. They tend to go to the same areas and thus in a first past the post riding system their impact is more marginalized by either being out voted by the still strong conservative sentiment or by giving more votes to the already elected Liberal/NDP's in Edmonton.

The environment is quite far down on the list of concerns for me as a young voter. The only time I consider it is if I hear a candidate supporting Kyoto, I make sure to note and not vote for that dope.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by moon

The environment is quite far down on the list of concerns for me as a young voter. The only time I consider it is if I hear a candidate supporting Kyoto, I make sure to note and not vote for that dope.

may i ask why is that? Is it not clear to you that the global warming is starting to have a really huge impact on our way of life and eventually our economy? Like it or not, global warming will change the way people do business in the 21st century. It can become a positive for Alberta (adapt and become a leader), or a negative (fall behind by relying on old energy sources, and eventually fade away).

Btw, if environmentalism is down on your list of interests, than why do you use it as a reason to not support somebody? I would assume if you didnt care about it, you're knowledge about it wouldnt be that great on the mattter, so why do you call people dopes?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Table 5

may i ask why is that? Is it not clear to you that the global warming is starting to have a really huge impact on our way of life and eventually our economy? Like it or not, global warming will change the way people do business in the 21st century. It can become a positive for Alberta (adapt and become a leader), or a negative (fall behind by relying on old energy sources, and eventually fade away).

Btw, if environmentalism is down on your list of interests, than why do you use it as a reason to not support somebody? I would assume if you didnt care about it, you're knowledge about it wouldnt be that great on the mattter, so why do you call people dopes?

I guess I mean to say that "saving the environment" for lack of a better term is not high on my list of priorities. Those people speaking about gloom and doom when it comes to global warming and trying to ram an ineffective Kyoto Protocol down our throats.

I think things should be done to limit the impact we have on the environment but not nearly as much as what ,presumedly you, and people like Al Gore think needs to be done. I guess environment is higher up on my list but not because I think more needs to be done about it.

I have read reports, heard the arguments on global warming and don't want to tuen it into an argument on that. I am not in the group that thinks that Global Warming is as big a threat as some do and that humans are as huge of a problem with it as Gore et.al. say.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Table 5

may i ask why is that? Is it not clear to you that the global warming is starting to have a really huge impact on our way of life and eventually our economy? Like it or not, global warming will change the way people do business in the 21st century. It can become a positive for Alberta (adapt and become a leader), or a negative (fall behind by relying on old energy sources, and eventually fade away).

Btw, if environmentalism is down on your list of interests, than why do you use it as a reason to not support somebody? I would assume if you didnt care about it, you're knowledge about it wouldnt be that great on the mattter, so why do you call people dopes?

I call people dopes all the time. Probably not meant as strongly as you may think.

I guess I should have said won;t vote for that guy who I strongly disagree with.

[Agamemnon]

Geesh. The environment is what our economy (and lifestyle) is based on. I really can't relate to someone saying the environment is not on their list of priorities. I think sometimes people equate 'helping the environment' with 'caring about nothing else in the world BUT the environment'. I don't see how worrying about keeping the economy healthy and worrying about the environment are mutually exclusive issues. Huge portions of our economy rely on a healthy environment, not to mention human health. It seems so short-sighted to want to prioritize thing other than the environment/world we live in. The anti-environment crowd sure has been successful at making this an all or none issue, 'if you support helping the environment, you're an anti-economy nut-bar'. I guess we'll see who was right in the end though.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Geesh. The environment is what our economy (and lifestyle) is based on. I really can't relate to someone saying the environment is not on their list of priorities. I think sometimes people equate 'helping the environment' with 'caring about nothing else in the world BUT the environment'. I don't see how worrying about keeping the economy healthy and worrying about the environment are mutually exclusive issues. Huge portions of our economy rely on a healthy environment, not to mention human health. It seems so short-sighted to want to prioritize thing other than the environment/world we live in. The anti-environment crowd sure has been successful at making this an all or none issue, 'if you support helping the environment, you're an anti-economy nut-bar'. I guess we'll see who was right in the end though.

I totally agree with you. However, let's not forget how tough the traditional environmentalists have made it for themselves. The politics of polarization created by Greenpeace et al between traditional environmentalists and "big business" has made for a rather large obstacle to overcome.

It's just as short-sighted to expect average citizens to make drastic changes to their economic lifestyles to protect the environment, often when most people aren't directly (knowingly or not) effected by pollution, global warming etc...

There is a way to blend the two together though, call it fiscal environmentalism, free-market environmentalism... whatever you want. These two concepts have to be brought together.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by Stranger

I just glad Dinning didn't win. Anyone who put his support behind Paul Martin can't be trusted.

I ask again; how did the guy who was Treasurer under Ralph when all the brutal cuts were made get branded a Liberal?

He sent a letter of support to the guy who was about to become Prime Minister of Canada. How could he have been so stupid?

[moon]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Geesh. The environment is what our economy (and lifestyle) is based on. I really can't relate to someone saying the environment is not on their list of priorities. I think sometimes people equate 'helping the environment' with 'caring about nothing else in the world BUT the environment'. I don't see how worrying about keeping the economy healthy and worrying about the environment are mutually exclusive issues. Huge portions of our economy rely on a healthy environment, not to mention human health. It seems so short-sighted to want to prioritize thing other than the environment/world we live in. The anti-environment crowd sure has been successful at making this an all or none issue, 'if you support helping the environment, you're an anti-economy nut-bar'. I guess we'll see who was right in the end though.

I am not against helping the environment I am against people who are claiming gloom and doom. As well as people who are calling for major reforms.

I am all for reasonable changes to improve the environment. I don't think getting rid of SUV's or bitching about people driving them is reasonable. I don't think Kyoto is a practical solution either and I believe that people have proposed better plans out there. I also would tend to allow more leeway for corporations to act in good faith when it comes to the environment then most people would.

If people want to take a reasonalbe approach then fine. I recycle and do all that crap "for the environment" but I am tired of hearing people whine about SUV's and how electric cars have been held down adn the world is going to end and is getting warmer. No **** the world is getting warmer that is what it historically has done. Anyways I don't want to get in an environmental arguement as it has been hashed out here enough times and nobody is going to change anyones opinion.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by moon

I am not against helping the environment I am against people who are claiming gloom and doom. As well as people who are calling for major reforms.

So, do you pretty much believe everything right now is pretty much fine, and that those who predict a negative future for the environment if we continue along this path are wrong? You don't think any reforms are required to reduce human impact on the environment? Do you pretty much believe that if we just keep doing what we're doing, everything will more or less be fine?

Do you equate environmentalism with global warming? It sure sounds like it... there's a whole lot more to this world than warming/cooling aspects. Deforestation, chemical pollution, resource depletion, non-sustainable practises... these things all really do exist. If they're not on your priority list, you must either think a) they don't exist or b) you don't care. Either way... it doesn't make much sense to me.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I ask again; how did the guy who was Treasurer under Ralph when all the brutal cuts were made get branded a Liberal?

People see someone who seems unwilling to take a strong stand on any issue, donates money to Martin and has supposedly "shady" connections to big business and I think liberal just pops into their minds.

Dinning to me seems like a guy who wants to be in power moreso than he wants to promote "conservative" party policies. I think that hearing these "ties" to Martin combined with some of his actions could lend people to believe that he is a Liberal running in conservative clothign because it is his shot to becoming Premier. I have heard many times throughout the election that Dinning has been to working to become Premier a long time. you don't do that in Alberta by being a Liberal. Not saying I believe this but I could see how people might make the leap.

[moon]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

So, do you pretty much believe everything right now is pretty much fine, and that those who predict a negative future for the environment if we continue along this path are wrong? You don't think any reforms are required to reduce human impact on the environment? Do you pretty much believe that if we just keep doing what we're doing, everything will more or less be fine?

Do you equate environmentalism with global warming? It sure sounds like it... there's a whole lot more to this world than warming/cooling aspects. Deforestation, chemical pollution, resource depletion, non-sustainable practises... these things all really do exist. If they're not on your priority list, you must either think a) they don't exist or b) you don't care. Either way... it doesn't make much sense to me.

To answer your first question I don't think that we will see the negative effects as fast as some are stating or least to the extent that they are stating.

Not only global warming although that seems to be the big ticket issue, especially in Alberta for the past ten years, when it comes to environmentalism. I think they are can be problems in the world, and to a lesser extent Alberta, (but the world is all connected and all that, I know) but that they are not such a threat to us that we need to make major adjustments in our policies and lifestyles as some may like.

It isn't that I think they don't exist or that I don't care at all I just don't care as much as you or Table 5 and believe that they are less of a concern.

There are plenty of things that don't make sense to me about other peoples views especially after seeing the results of the PC election so I can see how you could be confused.

[Stranger]

Originally Posted by Bobblehead

I ask again; how did the guy who was Treasurer under Ralph when all the brutal cuts were made get branded a Liberal?

He sent a letter of support to the guy who was about to become Prime Minister of Canada. How could he have been so stupid?

I never called him a Liberal. I said I don't trust anyone who threw their support behind Paul Martin. The Federal Liberal Party was the most corrupt government this country has seen for years and I couldn't support a Alberta Premier who donated to Matin's campaign instead of his federal conservatives. I'm glad Ed Stelmach won. I can feel more at ease with a average joe farmer running the province than Dinning and his corporate support.