Rumor Control: Fidel Castro had died

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by Azure

Now you're turning an opinion into a fact based arguement. "I think", not "I know."

Big difference.

Azure, shut up with the rhetoric for once, and back yourself up with some facts. You've been completely runover in this thread and all you're doing is trying to create a diversion from that fact. Either bring something to the table to back up your weak ass position, or STFU. You're endless arm waving does nothing to win you or your position any support.

Frankly, the best thing posted in this thread is bobblehead's comments from the elderly Cuban.

"He is fearful the US will overwhelm the rich culture they have, and they will end up being bought up cheap and used for their resources. He knows it is coming, and knows it is necessary for his people's future growth, but worries his people won't be able to handle it if it happens too fast."

This is what concerns me as well. A great culture will likely be obliterated when the blockade ends and all the ex-patriots had back to Cuba.

[calculoso]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Frankly, the best thing posted in this thread is bobblehead's comments from the elderly Cuban.

"He is fearful the US will overwhelm the rich culture they have, and they will end up being bought up cheap and used for their resources. He knows it is coming, and knows it is necessary for his people's future growth, but worries his people won't be able to handle it if it happens too fast."

This is what concerns me as well. A great culture will likely be obliterated when the blockade ends and all the ex-patriots had back to Cuba.

We're seeing it in Canada, so I believe it is a legitimate fear. Mexico seems to want to work with the US and isn't being "bought", so the fear may not be as great as the Cuban gentleman thinks.

That said, I'd be curious to hear what kind of timeframe "happens too fast" would be. 2 years? 10 years? 20 years?

[Lanny_MacDonald]

After living in Florida I can say my personal experience was that a lot of people were looking forward to the day that the embargo ends so they can "provide essential services" in Cuba (that's what you and I call profiteering). The belief is that its going to be a wide open market and the first one in will own the candy store. Cuba is in for a wave of American influence the minute the government says its okay to do business there.

[Bobblehead]

Originally Posted by calculoso

We're seeing it in Canada, so I believe it is a legitimate fear. Mexico seems to want to work with the US and isn't being "bought", so the fear may not be as great as the Cuban gentleman thinks.

That said, I'd be curious to hear what kind of timeframe "happens too fast" would be. 2 years? 10 years? 20 years?

True, but the difference being Mexico has always been subject to American pressures, whereas Cuba has been isolated by the embargo. For Cuba, it will be like being thrown into a tub of hot water, while Mexico was in the water while it was heating up.

And as to the timeframe, your guess is as good as mine. I would think shorter rather than longer. Perhaps the Eastern Block countries could be used as a reference. I think Cuba would handle it better (since they have been flooded with US TV/radio for years and should have some idea of what is in store).

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Azure, shut up with the rhetoric for once, and back yourself up with some facts. You've been completely runover in this thread and all you're doing is trying to create a diversion from that fact. Either bring something to the table to back up your weak ass position, or STFU. You're endless arm waving does nothing to win you or your position any support.

Frankly, the best thing posted in this thread is bobblehead's comments from the elderly Cuban.

"He is fearful the US will overwhelm the rich culture they have, and they will end up being bought up cheap and used for their resources. He knows it is coming, and knows it is necessary for his people's future growth, but worries his people won't be able to handle it if it happens too fast."

This is what concerns me as well. A great culture will likely be obliterated when the blockade ends and all the ex-patriots had back to Cuba.

Rhetoric? You know its pretty funny that I could guess what you're going to say before you even post in the thread. I guess YOUR rhetoric America bashing Bullcrap has reached that limit already.

But here, I'll post the quotes by White Doors that I was defending...

Democracy isn't a one size fits all government. It is precisely the opposite of that. A democracy is whatever the people make it and that's precisely why it is the best form available.

Democracy is the worst form of government, except for everything else that has been tried.

I'd be interested in you telling me how you seem to infer that communism is better than democracy?

Ready?

Go!

You inferred that Cuba is better off because they are a communist dictatorship, unlike some of it's third world neighbours who are democracies.

Democracy is about individual rights and freedoms, capitalism is about the economy. But you knew that right? The reason those countries are stuck is because of corruption, socialistic policies, poor economic management and lack of education.

And yes, communism is evil because that much power corrupts the human(s) that hold it and last time I checked, humans are very much capable of evil.

And who said democracy was perfect?

I guess the obvious dodging by Kipperfan on many occasions is ignored by you, because, well Kipperfan likes to bash the US too, so you jump right into his boat.

I see no problem with the quotes above, hell many of them could be taken as opinion. But I guess our friend Kipperfan doesn't like other people's opinions.

All i recall reading was inncorrect oppinions.

And White Doors was right; communism to this date HAS been an evil system that has killed more people the other other form of government that mankind knows. Democracy DOES entail around individual rights and freedoms, capitalism IS about the free market economy. Why is that not fact?

Democracy HAS been the only system that has worked sucessfully, and to this date the most sucessful countries, with the least human rights violations by their government, plus those that don't commit genocide against their own people, have all been in one democratic form or another. China is even moving towards privitizing certain aspects of their economy. Why? Because they understand that the free market system works better that communism.

That is ALL that White Doors was saying, and considering that Kipperfan put him on ignore because he said, "communism is evil" it goes to show who really has the problem facing facts.

I think any system that ends up killing more the 100 million people SHOULD be considered evil. And that can include democracy too.

On his other point of why communism is evil...

And yes, communism is evil because that much power corrupts the human(s) that hold it and last time I checked, humans are very much capable of evil.

Lanny, you of all people should understand that 90% of the people in power these days try to manipulate their people in order to gain approval and in their eyes sucess. The difference between democracy and communism is that in a democratic state, the corrupt officials of power can be removed, while in a communist state, the officials stay in power until the next coup.

That is WHY communism is evil, and that is why it has never worked.

[Hakan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

One problem....Fidels brother is in line to take over...and he is more hardline than Fidel. It wont open up at all.

Not really.

Raul is in charge of the military and is deeply ingrained into the party but he did influence Castro to adopt free market reforms in the early 90s. Those reforms were very successful for small business owners in Cuba. Too successful after 4 years Fidel scrapped the program.

But the Cuban military, under Raul, is responsible for the Cuban tourism industry. Tourism in Cuba is almost entirely market driven so you could expect that once Raul takes over the leadership the country will move towards more free market policies.

Political and domestic freedoms will likely stay the same but economic freedoms will likely be enhanced.

With that said, Raul is no spring chicken either. I believe he is 5 years younger than Castro so his reign will not be that long. If I were a Canadian businessman I would be lined up at the door when Castro died.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Azure

.I think any system that ends up killing more the 100 million people SHOULD be considered evil. And that can include democracy too.

I could sit here and break down your post piece by piece, but like Lanny says, with you it IS a never ending circle or RHETORIC and mistruths.

If you honestly believe that the politcal ideology of communism has killed 100 million(or 1 or that matter) person, you are a miseducated little twit that needs to keep to himself. Just beacuse some of the world's worst examples of human existance ruled from a Communist platform does not mean the platform itself is, or ever wa evil in any way, shape or form. Go and read the Communist Manifesto for me and quote the "evil" in Marx's work??

I AM WAITING............WHERE IS MY QUOTE!!!!!

Last thing bucko.................HITLER, MUSSOLINI, MILOSEVIC, HUSSEIN, MULLAH MOHAMMED OMAR..............THEY WERE COMMUNISTS RIGHT??

[peter12]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

I could sit here and break down your post piece by piece, but like Lanny says, with you it IS a never ending circle or RHETORIC and mistruths.

If you honestly believe that the politcal ideology of communism has killed 100 million(or 1 or that matter) person, you are a miseducated little twit that needs to keep to himself. Just beacuse some of the world's worst examples of human existance ruled from a Communist platform does not mean the platform itself is, or ever wa evil in any way, shape or form. Go and read the Communist Manifesto for me and quote the "evil" in Marx's work??

I AM WAITING............WHERE IS MY QUOTE!!!!!

Last thing bucko.................HITLER, MUSSOLINI, MILOSEVIC, HUSSEIN, MULLAH MOHAMMED OMAR..............THEY WERE COMMUNISTS RIGHT??

Read the "Black Book of Communism". It's an impeccably researched tome of Communist atrocities, mostly using information from eyewitnesses and Soviet archives.

Communism is intrinsically violent. It professes a public good that is dictated through the masses through the Party. What happens to people that don't agree? The Gulag or something... or the firing squad, or the Cultural Revolution.

The ideology itself isn't bad, but the totalitarianism that it spawns always has had horrific consequences.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by peter12

Read the "Black Book of Communism". It's an impeccably researched tome of Communist atrocities, mostly using information from eyewitnesses and Soviet archives.

Communism is intrinsically violent. It professes a public good that is dictated through the masses through the Party. What happens to people that don't agree? The Gulag or something... or the firing squad, or the Cultural Revolution.

The ideology itself isn't bad, but the totalitarianism that it spawns always has had horrific consequences.

You have just agreed with me Peter. Of course Marx nor anyone else can or could have known how power will effect each person it is given too. My entire point is that Communism is NOT evil, it just so happens that a number of leaders to rule under the Communist banner have used the power given to them by the ideology of Communism to do evil things. But like I said, some of the, if not the worst, murderous leaders in history were far from Communists.

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by peter12

Read the "Black Book of Communism". It's an impeccably researched tome of Communist atrocities, mostly using information from eyewitnesses and Soviet archives.

Read, "Freeing the World to Death". It exposes the covert acts of the CIA and the American government, and all the bloodhed and death they have caused over the past 60 years. It's an impeccably researched tome of Capitalist atrocities, mostly using information from eyewitnesses, government and news archives.

There are attrocities on each end of political chasm. One side is just so much better at keeping their hands clean and pleading innocence than the other.

Communism is intrinsically violent.

Ideologies are not inherently violent, just those who implement them.

It professes a public good that is dictated through the masses through the Party. What happens to people that don't agree? The Gulag or something... or the firing squad, or the Cultural Revolution.

Where in communist doctrine does it mention gulag or firing squad? That is a manifestation of the people implementing it.

The ideology itself isn't bad, but the totalitarianism that it spawns always has had horrific consequences.

Totalitarianism is an abuse of power. It happens in every ideology, left or right. There have been more fascist regimes that ended up becoming totalitarian states than communist. Totalitarianism has been around since man chose to follow each other as organized societies. Communism has been around for a very short time. To suggest that communism has killed more people than any other ideology is not only incorrect, but myopic as well.

[Dark Gretzky]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

I could sit here and break down your post piece by piece, but like Lanny says, with you it IS a never ending circle or RHETORIC and mistruths.

If you honestly believe that the politcal ideology of communism has killed 100 million(or 1 or that matter) person, you are a miseducated little twit that needs to keep to himself. Just beacuse some of the world's worst examples of human existance ruled from a Communist platform does not mean the platform itself is, or ever wa evil in any way, shape or form. Go and read the Communist Manifesto for me and quote the "evil" in Marx's work??

I AM WAITING............WHERE IS MY QUOTE!!!!!

Last thing bucko.................HITLER, MUSSOLINI, MILOSEVIC, HUSSEIN, MULLAH MOHAMMED OMAR..............THEY WERE COMMUNISTS RIGHT??

Hmm I could've SWORE that the reason that Hitler was thrown in jail for treason was because of his uprising AGAINST communists during the Beer Hall Putsch...its in the movie "Hitler: The Rise of Evil"...

[peter12]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

You have just agreed with me Peter. Of course Marx nor anyone else can or could have known how power will effect each person it is given too. My entire point is that Communism is NOT evil, it just so happens that a number of leaders to rule under the Communist banner have used the power given to them by the ideology of Communism to do evil things. But like I said, some of the, if not the worst, murderous leaders in history were far from Communists.

Was I disagreeing with you? The ideology leads to violence.
Guys...guys... guys... Marx wasn't an evil guy, rosy and naive but not evil.
However, the basic tenets of Marxism and Marxist-Leninist Communism do easily lead to state-sponsered violence.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by Dark Gretzky

Hmm I could've SWORE that the reason that Hitler was thrown in jail for treason was because of his uprising AGAINST communists during the Beer Hall Putsch...its in the movie "Hitler: The Rise of Evil"...

Have you heard of a little thing called ....um.........SARCASM.....its in "The Dictionary"

Read then post........Read then post.........Read then post......its really not too hard.

[kipperfan]

Originally Posted by peter12

Was I disagreeing with you? The ideology leads to violence.
Guys...guys... guys... Marx wasn't an evil guy, rosy and naive but not evil.
However, the basic tenets of Marxism and Marxist-Leninist Communism do easily lead to state-sponsered violence.

I happen to agree with that, but at the same time i could make an argument that Capitalism has the same pitfalls(see Lanny's suggested reading above).

[Lanny_MacDonald]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

I happen to agree with that, but at the same time i could make an argument that Capitalism has the same pitfalls(see Lanny's suggested reading above).

Again, Capitalism is no inherently evil, it is the scum bags who use it to achieve their twisted interpretation of the ideology.

I will add that capitalism is a very competitive ideology, one that encourages people to be deceitful and manipulative (this is why The Prince and The Art of War are recommended reading in many advanced economics and business classes). Communism is all about collective, and working together toward a common shared goal. Which one do you think is more predisposed toward violence?

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

Again, Capitalism is no inherently evil, it is the scum bags who use it to achieve their twisted interpretation of the ideology.

I will add that capitalism is a very competitive ideology, one that encourages people to be deceitful and manipulative (this is why The Prince and The Art of War are recommended reading in many advanced economics and business classes). Communism is all about collective, and working together toward a common shared goal. Which one do you think is more predisposed toward violence?

Communism. Not everyone has the same common shared goal.

Dude, how are you a conservative in any way? A good conservative knows this stuff.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by kipperfan

I could sit here and break down your post piece by piece, but like Lanny says, with you it IS a never ending circle or RHETORIC and mistruths.

If you honestly believe that the politcal ideology of communism has killed 100 million(or 1 or that matter) person, you are a miseducated little twit that needs to keep to himself. Just beacuse some of the world's worst examples of human existance ruled from a Communist platform does not mean the platform itself is, or ever wa evil in any way, shape or form. Go and read the Communist Manifesto for me and quote the "evil" in Marx's work??

I AM WAITING............WHERE IS MY QUOTE!!!!!

Last thing bucko.................HITLER, MUSSOLINI, MILOSEVIC, HUSSEIN, MULLAH MOHAMMED OMAR..............THEY WERE COMMUNISTS RIGHT??

All Facist, a political ideology completly opposite of communism. Stalin and Mao were communist, and each killed at least 60 million people.

Communism in its pure form is a great system, if all the people abide by it. However, there is no incentive to work, as most people look for individual gain, something that capitalism, not communism can provide.

Both systems have their downfalls, yet only one of them still stands today. The other has been a miserable failure through and through. You only need to look at the fall of the Soviet Union to realize that.

BTW, I did say both sides of the spectrum can be evil, didn't you notice?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Lanny_MacDonald

There are attrocities on each end of political chasm. One side is just so much better at keeping their hands clean and pleading innocence than the other.

And that side can be taken from power by the people. The other could hold rule for 100's of years.

For the lecture you gave a couple days ago on your political views, you sure seem to diagree with them here.

[Hakan]

Both systems have their downfalls, yet only one of them still stands today. The other has been a miserable failure through and through. You only need to look at the fall of the Soviet Union to realize that.

I don't think you need to argue with anyone over how bad communism is. You and Peter seem to be clouding the argument that others in this thread are making. Capitalism is not a saviour and is just as much a bedmate of violent totalitarian oppression as communism. All you need to do is look at Central and South America.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by Hakan

I don't think you need to argue with anyone over how bad communism is. You and Peter seem to be clouding the argument that others in this thread are making. Capitalism is not a saviour and is just as much a bedmate of violent totalitarian oppression as communism. All you need to do is look at Central and South America.

Well, I would argue in its pure form it is a savior. An impressive savior. However, lately capitalism seems to be one of the more abused set of ideas floating around.