The Faith Poll

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Frank the Tank

I didn't realize the tsunamis were man-made. Or the flooding in New Orleans.

So it's easier for you to blame that on science than God? Does it make it less horrible that way?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Vulcan,
Again...and this is probably the 25th time or more Ive mentioned this. I WAS a religious person a long time ago. I am not an 18 year old person. I have lived a full life to this point and have experienced religion(s) first hand. I think I have enough experience in these religions to make as valid an argument as anyone here. I personally dont care whether you find little worth in my arguments...it makes zero difference to me.
You can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster for all I care.
I draw the line at teaching children lies and fallacies. Teach it as the myth it is.
I have never once on this board suggested that anyone stop believing in anything. I have asked for valid proof...as has Cow and trout and many others. Yet you pick me out of the crowd. So be it. Prove your theories before teaching it as "gospel" to unknowing children!

I don't follow any organized religion so don't throw me into the crowd that teaches the "gospel" to unknowing children. I don't have any theories about religion, I only have personal experience about a feeling I have inside me. This feeling is as real to me as eating an apple and is something I sometimes like to share because it gives me pleasure. It has nothing to do with my ego or getting browny points from god. I'd just like to put out the possiibility that their is more beauty to experience in this life then our five senses tell us.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

You have no proof there is no God, much like I have no proof there is. Yet you are teaching that there absolutely is no God. I don't care which God is the 'right' one, or even if any versions we currently pray to are accurate, my point is that while I have no proof in Christ, that doesn't negate there being a God, just not the Christian God. Yet you tell people there absolutely is no God.

Try to refrain from putting words in my mouth Cheese. I don't care if you do or do not believe. I don't preach to anyone, and I expect that same courtesy in return. If I choose to go to Church, THEN I wish to be preached at. If you have an issue with someone preaching to you, tell THEM! You'll notice I never hop into these threads until well after the discussion has started, and yet you and other anti-religious persons on the site seem to always be starting threads like this one. You are the one who keeps bringing it all up, and yet you tell me that if I'm allowed to preach, you should also be able to?

Also, you have no idea how close religion is to my heart. You don't know how far or close I am to the church, whether I go every Sunday, or anything about my personal beliefs. You don't know if I pass over the collection plate or not, yet you jab. Always jabbing.

Religions have done some bad things. They've also done some really good things as well. Why can't you accept that some people like to believe there's something more to live than the hell we're put through on Earth? As I've said before, a 'zealot' without religion is still a psycho.

Every single thread on religion turns into a 'you're wrong, and I want you to prove to me that Jesus existed' thread. Some of us have faith in things we can't explain. Do you ever stop to ask why the 'big bang' can't be properly explained? You ever ask yourself what happens if something mystical did cause it? No. You just assume science will get to it one day. It's another form of faith, Cheese. Just another religion.

Science caused the atomic bomb, but you don't blame science for those deaths, you just look at the horrors religion caused. I might have to tell you that the horrors science has caused/is causing are just as, if not worse.

Fly ...if you dont like what I say then put me on Ignore. No biggy here.
I dont have a church, mosque or any other temple to say what I want...so I speak where I can. You dont have to open these threads up if it disturbs you.
I cant prove my theories Fly....but thats not the point is it? I dont teach children about Hell. Why do you have a problem with that?

[FireFly]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Fly ...if you dont like what I say then put me on Ignore. No biggy here.
I dont have a church, mosque or any other temple to say what I want...so I speak where I can. You dont have to open these threads up if it disturbs you.
I cant prove my theories Fly....but thats not the point is it? I dont teach children about Hell. Why do you have a problem with that?

You go on and on about how religion is a crock of ****, but you admit that you don't have proof in your theories either. You condem religion for teaching things as 'truth' but you do the same. That IS the problem. Why do I have a problem with it? If you didn't tell religions to stop preaching their falsehoods, I wouldn't. But you want the only falsehoods spread to be yours.

I injoy reading your posts, Cheese. However, you need to take a long look in the mirror and quit being a hypocrite. Quit telling others to prove their faith when you can't prove your own. Quit telling others to stop preaching falsehoods when you may be guilty of that exact same thing.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Frank the Tank

I didn't realize the tsunamis were man-made. Or the flooding in New Orleans.

I have no idea what you mean by this.

Of course they aren't man made....nor are they "God" made. It's nature/science.

Or are you under the impression that if a God existed, nothing bad would ever happen to anyone? We would all live perfectly happy healthy lives and never die....yes?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by FireFly

You go on and on about how religion is a crock of ****, but you admit that you don't have proof in your theories either. You condem religion for teaching things as 'truth' but you do the same. That IS the problem. Why do I have a problem with it? If you didn't tell religions to stop preaching their falsehoods, I wouldn't. But you want the only falsehoods spread to be yours.

I injoy reading your posts, Cheese. However, you need to take a long look in the mirror and quit being a hypocrite. Quit telling others to prove their faith when you can't prove your own. Quit telling others to stop preaching falsehoods when you may be guilty of that exact same thing.

Fly for Paul Martin's sake...take a pill and relax. Please show me ONE post where ive said that religion is a crock of ****. All I have said is that theres no proof....you have a BIG problem with that. So what if science cant prove everything. I have not once in this thread or any other, espoused that you should believe everything I do. I do teach my children that science has many answers to lifes problems, and that as time goes on it will have many more answers. I also tell them that if anyone tells them that they need to follow a God, or if anyone tells them they will go to Hell, or any other negative place because of a mistake, to look that person firmly in the eye and say...PROVE IT! I condemn false teachings period.
Science is not a religion and scientists, unless they are on the take, will not publish falsehoods. Science is also able to adapt to change.
Dont talk to me about hypocrisy Fly...I think you can look around your church or place of worship and find enough of those around you.
Feel free to worship whatever you want.

[Resolute 14]

Prove to me that God does not exist, Cheese.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I have no idea what you mean by this.

Of course they aren't man made....nor are they "God" made. It's nature/science.

Muslim religious leaders in Indonesia in fact have been saying for the last year that the Tsunami's were made by God as punishment for not being pious enough.

Cowperson

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Prove to me that God does not exist, Cheese.

Snake...Ill tell you what...you go and read this entire thread...and the other one as well then come back and talk. Im sure youll find my answer about 15 times.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I have no idea what you mean by this.

Of course they aren't man made....nor are they "God" made. It's nature/science.

Or are you under the impression that if a God existed, nothing bad would ever happen to anyone? We would all live perfectly happy healthy lives and never die....yes?

Isnt that Heaven tranny?

[transplant99]

Muslim religious leaders in Indonesia in fact have been saying for the last year that the Tsunami's were made by God as punishment for not being pious enough.

Doesn't mean they are correct does it?

[transplant99]

Isnt that Heaven tranny?

No idea. I have no idea if "heaven" exists or not. Nither do you or anyone else.

What Frank is saying if i understand though is this....

IF there is a God, there wouldn't be things such as tsunami's and earthquakes and hurricanes or any other sort of natural disaster.

Well let's take that a step further. There must not be a God because humans get ill, and dont live forever...right? That would be just as assumable as anything he is pointing too.

Nither makes any sense.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Doesn't mean they are correct does it?

We can agree they're loony.

That's not the point though.

Muslim leaders in Pakistan have said the same thing about the deadly earthquakes there. God's punishment.

You can find many examples on the Christian side as well.

Organized religion has used naturally occurring events to solidify its position through fear for thousands of years. . . . . and the present day is no different.

Cowperson

[transplant99]

Organized religion has used naturally occurring events to solidify its position through fear for thousands of years. . . . . and the present day is no different.

Great, I agree.

But how does that prove there is no God?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Isnt that Heaven tranny?

There you go, making up your own ideas of what heaven is and when you don't find it, you claim it don't exist. That's just what religions do, so when they can't find it they say you have to wait until you die. I'll take the here and now and try to enjoy life with as few preconcieved ideas as possible.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Or are you under the impression that if a God existed, nothing bad would ever happen to anyone? We would all live perfectly happy healthy lives and never die....yes?

From the Catholic Encyclopedia....

II. EXISTENCE OF HEAVEN

There is a heaven, i.e., God will bestow happiness and the richest gifts on all those who depart this life free from original sin and personal mortal sin, and who are, consequently, in the state of justice and friendship with God.

Thers also a bunch o stuff on Purgatory, Limbo and um...Hell.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Great, I agree.

But how does that prove there is no God?

I said earlier there is no way to prove or disprove God and I said I hold out hope there is a God.

The topic of organized religion, however, is probably a separate one from God and we can see the way organized religion manipulates natural events in an attempt to prove the existence of God.

Cowperson

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

There you go, making up your own ideas of what heaven is and when you don't find it, you claim it don't exist. That's just what religions do, so when they can't find it they say you have to wait until you die. I'll take the here and now and try to enjoy life with as few preconcieved ideas as possible.

See above Vulcan...i dont make stuff up.

Gee you know what...you sound just like me with the here and now stuff.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Cheese

From the Catholic Encyclopedia....

II. EXISTENCE OF HEAVEN

There is a heaven, i.e., God will bestow happiness and the richest gifts on all those who depart this life free from original sin and personal mortal sin, and who are, consequently, in the state of justice and friendship with God.

Thers also a bunch o stuff on Purgatory, Limbo and um...Hell.

Great. Wonderful.

It would even have relevance if i was Catholic.

Im not.

[Rory Tate]

I am an atheist, and voted honestly as such (without any need for anonymity). I used to be an epistemological agnostic back in my university days (as opposed to ontological...ontologicals are stupid poo-poos :-), but I discovered that I was only saying that in a needless attempt to be nice to my religious friends. They didn't mind that I was an atheist any more than I minded that they were ordained Lutheran ministers.

Quite an interesting distribution from the respondents in this poll...not heavily weighted on any side of the debate. The thread itself is worthy of comment as well, although I'll offer up a quick bit of background on myself first before I get into that. I have actually been involved in debates against creationists (of the young earth variety), plus many other informal discussions on message boards regarding "science vs religion", and it is quite common that the endgame to this topic always involves some form of "You can't prove <insert deity here> exists" vs "You can't prove <insert deity here> doesn't exist". So the question is: how does such a dilemma ever get resolved? We all obviously have an opinion (well, except for those stupid ontological agnostics), so how did we ever decide either way if it comes down to such an unanswerable question?

Well, some people try to solve this by focusing on a rigourous definition of what it means to "prove" something. However, these philosophical treatises certainly aren't meant for the layperson, and they most often end up being disregarded as "blatant intellectualism". Plus, since they focus on an objective view of a strict material world, they are heavily weighted toward the scientific side of the debate, which makes it small wonder then that they always seem to find the "God doesn't exist" side as the more common sense approach.

Others have used rebuttal arguments such as "If I can't prove [to the level you require] that Santa Claus doesn't exist, or that unicorns don't exist, would you believe in those too? There are even 'historical records' claiming that both of these beings are real." Not surprisingly, this path doesn't really appeal to either side in the end. It's equivalent to dragging both science and religion down into the muck together, and letting them wallow in the fact that they are both equally stupid. ("They are both beliefs, so there! Nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah!") Ha!

Myself, I have found that expressing my own experiences (joy, inspiration, wonder, and understanding) that have resulted from the inclusion of science in my life has been the best tool to communicate much that is meaningful. From Carl Sagan's writings that we are all made from "star stuff" (carbon atoms being formed only in the death of a star), to esoteric mathematical objects such as countable and uncountable (and higher) infinities, to Godel's incompleteness theorem and quantum mechanics and special/general relativity, to a simple awareness of environmental concerns (it is true that scientists were the first real environmentalists) that still sees me riding my bike to work even right now in the middle of January...science has given me so much that has enriched my life.

The simple analogy I make is that we all live in houses, but not all houses are made equal. Some can be made of glass, or wood, or brick, etc. Indeed, we can go even further, and say that some houses contain fire and smoke alarms, or even sprinkler systems to protect their occupants. The question we are asking is: which house would you choose as your home? Science has systems in place that have encouraged the replacement of old and dangerous ideas with new ones, and also prevented and fought against the introduction of much that is harmful. With rigour and peer review it has been well deserving of my trust, because all of the skepticism that I would apply to any new idea has already been put in place (sometimes even by the person introducing the idea).

At their heights, both religion and science have shown us the best that humanity has to offer. However, in the end, science has a much stronger foundation that will see it contributing and growing into the future, and as such it will always get my vote.

History has seen the changing of many aspects of this debate, and none moreso than the drying up of any positives from the religious side. Centuries ago, the religious arguments would have referenced the inspiration (musical, art, etc) and joy that grew out of belief in a deity, for at the time such examples were readily at hand. Nowadays, however, the attempt is made to sway people with arguments such as the "horrors of modern living", or the "evil of technology". While there is much that is wrong in this world, with our reliance on gadgetry, bomb-building, and removing our humanity even as we try to use our highly-evolved brains in a vain attempt to better our lives, still the power of understanding is what is needed to help us direct those discoveries in a manner that is for the benefit of all. In the end, that is what we are arguing here.


"Spirituality is the industry of spirit." -- Rory Mitchell