[PGT] Flames 6 Arizona 5 - whine about the tank here

[getbak]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I think this is what they decided to to in the new Women's professional league.

Looking at the PWHL standings shows why this isn't a great idea. Right now, every team has 5 games remaining and no team has been eliminated from the playoffs. It will be at least 2 more games until someone is finally officially eliminated. So, ultimately, it's going to come down to the results of a maximum of 3 games for the eliminated teams, and possibly only one or two.

In a small league like that, I don't think it really works.

Even in a big league like the NHL, you would still get angry fans complaining about wins, it would just happen earlier as they would want their team to get officially eliminated as soon as possible.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Igottago

You are totally correct, its ridiculous. But the system is the system and you either use it to your advantage or you don't. Unfortunately the best draft picks and generational talents don't generally get awarded to teams for fighting to the end. The moral virtues of not tanking mean very little.

Excatly. It's just like the teams that leverage LTIR. It's the system that is there and teams that want to win will do everything they can to get an edge by taking advantage of it. The Flames "taking the high road" just means we're doomed to further mediocrity at both ends of the spectrum. Hey, at least we retained on a couple of trades this year. Maybe in the next decade the team will be open to using cap space to their advantage to get picks rather than give picks away to take our bad contracts? Maybe we'll lean on the youth after being eliminated for short and long-term benefit? We need to use the system just like other teams do. If the Flames don't, they aren't trying hard enough to win.

[GioforPM]

Sure, the system is the system. But aside from illegally throwing games, how does one actually work this system?

It looked to me like Anaheim and AZ actually were trying in the last couple games. They were just (a) bad and (b) unlucky on a couple bounces.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Sure, the system is the system. But aside from illegally throwing games, how does one actually work this system?

It looked to me like Anaheim and AZ actually were trying in the last couple games. They were just (a) bad and (b) unlucky on a couple bounces.

You pick a direction and you commit. You're never going to throw games but you don't manage the team with the short term competetiveness in mind.
To their credit the Flames have gone most of the way there this season. But who knows what happens this offseason.
This is the team that refuses to say rebuild so I'm never really sure what they want to do.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Why exactly? the day they traded Zadorov they had been icing a lineup with Zadorov, Lindholm, Tanev, and Hanifin and they were 1 game under .500

today they are....one game under .500
#1 PP in the NHL since mid March (Kuz)

5 games over from the Zadorov trade to the Tanev trade.
5 games under since.

Wouldn't next year's roster be closer to the one that's closing out this season?

Nothing is guaranteed, but I think it quite likely that the Flames are a top ten pick next year.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Igottago

You pick a direction and you commit. You're never going to throw games but you don't manage the team with the short term competetiveness in mind.
To their credit the Flames have gone most of the way there this season. But who knows what happens this offseason.
This is the team that refuses to say rebuild so I'm never really sure what they want to do.

I’m not sure how many more trades they need to make before people figure out that they’ve picked a direction.

It’s like people think entirely binary. Tank or playoffs. Retool? Not a direction! Average!

What else should they do at this point to make people happy outside of throwing games which they’ve stated unequivocally they will not do. Do people just not like the answer?

[NewFan]

I don't understand why only 1st AO has a lotto result.
I think all draft from 1-17 pick should have lotto picks.
Of course lower teams has more chance to win or stay in their position but 10-17 team should have chance to top 10, top 5 chance too.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Why exactly? the day they traded Zadorov they had been icing a lineup with Zadorov, Lindholm, Tanev, and Hanifin and they were 1 game under .500

today they are....one game under .500
#1 PP in the NHL since mid March (Kuz)

They moved well above .500 before trading Tanev and Hanifin. Since those trades they've been .333.

You can stop beating this drum anytime.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Igottago

You pick a direction and you commit. You're never going to throw games but you don't manage the team with the short term competetiveness in mind.
To their credit the Flames have gone most of the way there this season. But who knows what happens this offseason.
This is the team that refuses to say rebuild so I'm never really sure what they want to do.

So it's just one word that you can specificlly say you want them to say? The rest is just word salad. I'm asking for some specifics. What should the Flames have done in the last two games? Tell goal scorers not to score goals? Tell goalies to let in more pucks? Say "FU" to ticket holders and not play an NHL roster?

Kadri scored twice last night. But also scoring were Kuzmenko, Sharangovich, Zary and Coronato. All guys fighting for a roster spot. They are going to play hard.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So it's just one word that you can specificlly say you want them to say? The rest is just word salad. I'm asking for some specifics. What should the Flames have done in the last two games? Tell goal scorers not to score goals? Tell goalies to let in more pucks? Say "FU" to ticket holders and not play an NHL roster?

Kadri scored twice last night. But also scoring were Kuzmenko, Sharangovich, Zary and Coronato. All guys fighting for a roster spot. They are going to play hard.

No one is asking them not to play hard. The players job is on the ice, they have no control over the overall direction of the team. I'm talking about the managerial decisions, which despite the trades of this season, remain to be seen for next season. Yes, I would like them to acknowledge a rebuild. I think trying to thread the needle for a "retool" is a less optimal strategy for long term success.

[Lewis_D]

Tanking is hard. It really makes you realize that while there's lots of very good teams in this league, there's also a handful of very bad teams. Like, too bad to be playing in the best hockey league in the world IMO. This has always been one of my main concerns with expanding to 34 teams.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

I’m not sure how many more trades they need to make before people figure out that they’ve picked a direction.

It’s like people think entirely binary. Tank or playoffs. Retool? Not a direction! Average!

What else should they do at this point to make people happy outside of throwing games which they’ve stated unequivocally they will not do. Do people just not like the answer?

Rebuilding (or retooling) is not a one year process. I never said I was unhappy, I think Conroy has done a great job, this season. But what direction they choose to go for next season is pretty important. I think this team needs to accept some time in the basement and have shots at some top 5 picks. I'm not sure they feel that way.

[Shazam]

Originally Posted by Igottago

Rebuilding (or retooling) is not a one year process. I never said I was unhappy, I think Conroy has done a great job, this season. But what direction they choose to go for next season is pretty important. I think this team needs to accept some time in the basement and have shots at some top 5 picks. I'm not sure they feel that way.

The current team is terrible, and there's really nothing they can do over the offseason to make it better.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I'm asking for some specifics. What should the Flames have done in the last two games?

Give the kids more ice time to see what they do with it? Play them in all situations to give them some learning time? Give them opportunity in games that mean #### all?

Ice time from the past two games combined.

Sharangovich - 40:04
Backlund 37:09
Kadri - 36:07
Huberdeau - 34:21
Kuzmenko - 33:53
Zary - 30:53
Mangiapane - 29:00
Coronato - 26:08
Pospisil - 25:49
Hunt - 24:21
Rooney - 22:43
Duehr - 19:25

Weegar - 51:47
Andersson - 45:09
Mironmanov - 42:39
Kylington - 40:24
Pachal - 28:03
Okhotiuk - 25:01

Play more kids. Play the kids more. Play the kids in all situations. Let them get the taste of all aspects of the game in the bigs if that is the type of player you want them to be long term. Rolling out the top PP and top PK in nothing games doesn't provide many learning opportunities for the guys that are the future of the team.

[FanIn80]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

So it's just one word that you can specificlly say you want them to say? The rest is just word salad. I'm asking for some specifics. What should the Flames have done in the last two games? Tell goal scorers not to score goals? Tell goalies to let in more pucks? Say "FU" to ticket holders and not play an NHL roster?

Kadri scored twice last night. But also scoring were Kuzmenko, Sharangovich, Zary and Coronato. All guys fighting for a roster spot. They are going to play hard.

This part bothers me. In short, the answer to this question is "yes."

The people running the team/org are there to make the right, logical decisions. That's why they're there. What's more important for the good of this franchise? Playing all the vets and trying to win every game so the fans can be "entertained" by the same quality of hockey that failed to make the playoffs? Or... Is it better to "say FU" to all that, and use the post-elimination games as a mini training camp for some of the kids who might've earned it?

What is the downside of cycling vets between the pressbox and the ice for the last 10 games of the season? Are people actually paying money specifically to see Huberdeau play like a 3rd line winger? I think they're paying money in spite of Huberdeau playing. Is a fan being upset because Backlund didn't play in a meaningless game worth icing a vet-heavy lineup full of players that we already know what to expect from?

The only real downside would be in maybe pissing off a few of the players... but here's the thing... a couple things, actually...

1. I'm 100% fine with pissing off Huberdeau. Good, hopefully he demands a trade, so we can inform him of how many teams are willing to trade for him. In fact, hopefully he gets so mad by all of that, that he comes back next season and lights up the league for the first couple months, making it possible to actually get rid of that contract. This is not a downside.

2. It's a pretty easy way of weeding out the players who trully are more interested in themselves than the team. I imagine a guy like Andersson would actually be more mad that we're playing him instead of a younger guy. The players who "get it" and understand/appreciate the importance of using the post-elimination games to help speed up our re-whatever... those are the ones that wouldn't be pissed off at all, and (not coincidentally) are the right kind of players to have on the team.

So... we piss off some fans in the -extremely- short term, and piss off the kind of players we really shouldn't care about pissing off anyway... and in exchange for that, we get some advance looks at some of the kids on the Wranglers, and maybe also pick 5th overall instead of possibly 12th overall.

The point is, the guys that run this whole thing are getting millions of dollars to be the ones that stand up and say... in your words... "fu" to whomever they need to, in order to turn this team around... and turning this team around means getting younger and cheaper and drafting as high as we can, and then using the cap space to KEEP those players (instead of using it to keep an aging winger and letting a franchise player go 4-5 years yearly).

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by Shazam

The current team is terrible, and there's really nothing they can do over the offseason to make it better.

Won't necessarily stop them from trying, and at the expense of a longer term strategy.

[Shazam]

Huberdeau doesn't really move the needle, he just exists.

Can't play nothing but kids the entire game.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Give the kids more ice time to see what they do with it? Play them in all situations to give them some learning time? Give them opportunity in games that mean #### all?

Ice time from the past two games combined.

Sharangovich - 40:04
Backlund 37:09
Kadri - 36:07
Huberdeau - 34:21
Kuzmenko - 33:53
Zary - 30:53
Mangiapane - 29:00
Coronato - 26:08
Pospisil - 25:49
Hunt - 24:21
Rooney - 22:43
Duehr - 19:25

Weegar - 51:47
Andersson - 45:09
Mironmanov - 42:39
Kylington - 40:24
Pachal - 28:03
Okhotiuk - 25:01

Play more kids. Play the kids more. Play the kids in all situations. Let them get the taste of all aspects of the game in the bigs if that is the type of player you want them to be long term. Rolling out the top PP and top PK in nothing games doesn't provide many learning opportunities for the guys that are the future of the team.

I thought you wanted to lose? Without Zary and Coronato the Flames lose that game.

Anyway, as for ice time, you should count shifts, not ice time, because ice time is so dependent on what's happening on the ice at the time, and whether some players routinely stretch their shifts. Look at shift numbers - that's the coach deciding how much to play a guy. Last game the kids Zary, Coronato and Pospisil had 18-19 shifts each. That's only a one or two shy of Kuzmenko, Huberdeau, Rooney, it's more than Mangiapane, Hunt, Duehr. Kadri, Backlund and Sharangovich had 23 shifts. There's not a huge gap going on here.

Throwing kids in in what you call a nothing game doesn't really help them much anyway. And it can screw them up.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by FanIn80

This part bothers me. In short, the answer to this question is "yes."

The people running the team/org are there to make the right, logical decisions. That's why they're there. What's more important for the good of this franchise? Playing all the vets and trying to win every game so the fans can be "entertained" by the same quality of hockey that failed to make the playoffs? Or... Is it better to "say FU" to all that, and use the post-elimination games as a mini training camp for some of the kids who might've earned it?

What is the downside of cycling vets between the pressbox and the ice for the last 10 games of the season? Are people actually paying money specifically to see Huberdeau play like a 3rd line winger? I think they're paying money in spite of Huberdeau playing. Is a fan being upset because Backlund didn't play in a meaningless game worth icing a vet-heavy lineup full of players that we already know what to expect from?

The only real downside would be in maybe pissing off a few of the players... but here's the thing... a couple things, actually...

1. I'm 100% fine with pissing off Huberdeau. Good, hopefully he demands a trade, so we can inform him of how many teams are willing to trade for him. In fact, hopefully he gets so mad by all of that, that he comes back next season and lights up the league for the first couple months, making it possible to actually get rid of that contract. This is not a downside.

2. It's a pretty easy way of weeding out the players who trully are more interested in themselves than the team. I imagine a guy like Andersson would actually be more mad that we're playing him instead of a younger guy. The players who "get it" and understand/appreciate the importance of using the post-elimination games to help speed up our re-whatever... those are the ones that wouldn't be pissed off at all, and (not coincidentally) are the right kind of players to have on the team.

So... we piss off some fans in the -extremely- short term, and piss off the kind of players we really shouldn't care about pissing off anyway... and in exchange for that, we get some advance looks at some of the kids on the Wranglers, and maybe also pick 5th overall instead of possibly 12th overall.

The point is, the guys that run this whole thing are getting millions of dollars to be the ones that stand up and say... in your words... "fu" to whomever they need to, in order to turn this team around... and turning this team around means getting younger and cheaper and drafting as high as we can, and then using the cap space to KEEP those players (instead of using it to keep an aging winger and letting a franchise player go 4-5 years yearly).

90% of fans don't buy a ticket thinking or hoping to see a team lose, especially because the management decides to dress a non-NHL roster. Did you buy tickets to any games in the last 20? Did you renew your seasons tickets? If not, why not? Could it be because you want to see a competitive game?

And no one talked about pissing off players. But the fact of the CBA is that you can't just replace all vets with an AHL roster. There are some rules around callups, roster size and NHL contracts.

[Mr.Coffee]

If you want a better chance of losing then play Huberdeau 30+ mins a night. The kids are the ones winning, well, and Kadri. And Weegar. Guess I’m saying, go purposefully pick the players more likely to lose. Huberdeau and Mangiapane should do the trick.