Canmore population to double? Legal battle?

[Leondros]

I much prefer this thread compared to the Israel dumpster fire - just want to thank everyone for their contributions. It was much needed compared to some of the more serious world events/Flames loss threads.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Just a couple quick points here. You thought Canmore sucked in the early 90's, but the Canmore of that day was what residents loved. Canmore wasn't Banff, it was a point of pride for many.Does that help you understand why they resist turning their home into what they tried to avoid?

As for telling the residents to STFU and deal with it, I think that's kind of bull####. The residents are who built the Bow Valley for you. They are the ones who established a community, took care of the ski hills, kept Banff running, and build a town where people knew each other and cared about it. And you are gleefully tearing that down, to create a town where nobody knows each other, or cares about anything, really. Their input is more valuable than theirs, because they live in it every day and continue to contribute tot he community, whereas weekenders show up, use whatever they want, and leave. The day to day of running the town is irrelevant to them. It is not to residents. This might be obvious, given that vast majority of residents oppose this expansion. Maybe instead of lashing out at them, you could try to understand it from their perspective?

Canmore hasn't been the Canmore of the 90s for a long time. I had a good friend who lived there and hung out there, so I get that sentiment. The old Canmore has been torn down for a long time, and that Canmore is not coming back. The options are:

1. An isolated mountain community for rich residents; or
2. A slight larger community for the slightly less rich.

[Knut]

I loved the Locke and Sliver exchange about MacGregor Lake. There and Little Bow are havens of the all weekend partier.

If you drew a box from Stavely to Little Bow, up to MacGregor lake then across to encompass High River you will find a group of drinkers with superior genetic alcohol tolerance. They work hard and party hard and can do it for days on end. Lots of successful people have come out of that box and lots have died from Substance abuse and drunk driving.

As for Canmore, my wife and I kicked tires on buying a place out there for years, but instead decided to buy a lake Access house in Calgary. I hated the idea of having to look after two properties. We kind of are kicking ourselves we didn't though as every time we head out there we remember how great the place is.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by blankall

Canmore hasn't been the Canmore of the 90s for a long time. I had a good friend who lived there and hung out there, so I get that sentiment. The old Canmore has been torn down for a long time, and that Canmore is not coming back. The options are:

1. An isolated mountain community for rich residents; or
2. A slight larger community for the slightly less rich.

You mean doubling the size? Talk about minimizing what is being opposed...

[Weitz]

I’ve got a property in Canmore that we spend a good amount of time at and from what I can glean from my neighbours it’s all just NIMBY bull####. “We’re here but we don’t want it TOO busy”.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by blankall

Canmore hasn't been the Canmore of the 90s for a long time. I had a good friend who lived there and hung out there, so I get that sentiment. The old Canmore has been torn down for a long time, and that Canmore is not coming back. The options are:

1. An isolated mountain community for rich residents; or
2. A slight larger community for the slightly less rich.

This is something I think is really important to acknowledge, and I think some previous posters have made note of it as well.

2023's Canmore ain't your Grand Pappy's Canmore no more.

Why? Because when they had a chance to take a stand against developers on new builds for extremely un-affordable housing...they took the money.

Can't complain about that now.

Sure, those residents helped build it into what it is...but they also did it by leveraging costs with other people's money.

And your home values reflect that.

Originally Posted by Knut

I loved the Locke and Sliver exchange about MacGregor Lake. There and Little Bow are havens of the all weekend partier.

If you drew a box from Stavely to Little Bow, up to MacGregor lake then across to encompass High River you will find a group of drinkers with superior genetic alcohol tolerance. They work hard and party hard and can do it for days on end. Lots of successful people have come out of that box and lots have died from Substance abuse and drunk driving.

As for Canmore, my wife and I kicked tires on buying a place out there for years, but instead decided to buy a lake Access house in Calgary. I hated the idea of having to look after two properties. We kind of are kicking ourselves we didn't though as every time we head out there we remember how great the place is.

These people are there all summer!

I dont know how they do it. I wouldnt last a month and I'm far from a tee-totaler.

Blow, insanity and psychedelics? I can't be sure as I dont partake in any of those things...albeit 'insanity' could be up for debate.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You mean doubling the size? Talk about minimizing what is being opposed...

The size isn't going to double overnight. The population has already doubled since the late 1990s. There's also a natural cap on how much land can actually be developed, with the latest proposal using up about 80% of what's left. As it stands already, you're cramming more and more people into increasingly unaffordable housing in Canmore.

In ten years is Canmore an overcrowded town of 20k or a less crowded, but geographically larger, town of 25k.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by blankall

The size isn't going to double overnight. The population has already doubled since the late 1990s. There's also a natural cap on how much land can actually be developed, with the latest proposal using up about 80% of what's left. As it stands already, you're cramming more and more people into increasingly unaffordable housing in Canmore.

In ten years is Canmore an overcrowded town of 20k or a less crowded, but geographically larger, town of 25k.

I guess that all depends on what you are counting. Residents? Weekenders? Empty homes? Tourists in condos? No matter how you slice it it's too many people for the valley. That's ok though, animals can go elsewhere. Human wins always.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by blankall

Canmore hasn't been the Canmore of the 90s for a long time. I had a good friend who lived there and hung out there, so I get that sentiment. The old Canmore has been torn down for a long time, and that Canmore is not coming back. The options are:

1. An isolated mountain community for rich residents; or
2. A slight larger community for the slightly less rich.

I don’t understand why people think a bigger Canmore will mean more affordable housing. As the population of southern Alberta grows, the number of people with deep pockets who will be willing to buy into new properties in a prime location like Canmore will greatly exceed the number of new units, even if they build thousands. That’s the way resort towns work - they don’t get cheaper.

A Canmore at 2x the population of today will be just as expensive. It will just mean more restaurants and stores employing more service workers who have nowhere to live.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I don’t understand why people think a bigger Canmore will mean more affordable housing. As the population of southern Alberta grows, the number of people with deep pockets who will be willing to buy into new properties in a prime location like Canmore will greatly exceed the number of new units, even if they build thousands. That’s the way resort towns work - they don’t get cheaper.

A Canmore at 2x the population of today will be just as expensive. It will just mean more restaurants and stores employing more service workers who have nowhere to live.

The workers will be fine. It'll transition into the same style of housing every other vacation town ends up with: dorms/shared accommodation spaces.

I'll tell you what will happen. It'll sound totally obvious once I say it. Restaurants and businesses will buy or build homes that work will as staff accommodation. If they want workers to employ, they'll need to set up housing. The staff will pay for that housing right off their cheques, so it'll be approximately net neutral for the business. Businesses that don't do this won't be able to find workers. It's that simple.

Is that different from how Canmore was in the 90s? Yes.

Can you name one place that isn't a shat-hole that isn't different today than it was in the 90s? No.

It's changing. Change is inevitable.

I'm going to tell you another laughable thing. This is nothing new. I think it was 1998 that I lived on Tunnel Mountain in a trailer. I was hired as a landscaper in Banff and my girlfriend was hired as a server at The Keg. With our two salaries, we could not afford accommodation and the companies we worked for didn't have staff accommodation (like, say, The Banff Springs). So we bought a 1972 16' trailer for $1000, towed it to Tunnel, and lived there. Had to move it every 14 days (that's the maximum stay allowed).

Lack of accommodation for low-income people in tourist areas has always been a problem yet there is a never-ending supply of people willing to make it work. That's because you get to live in a million-dollar area at, like, 21 years old, make a couple of dollars (barely), but enjoy a lifestyle and location you wouldn't have a hope in hell of affording unless you were born rich or have 25 years of work and saving under your belt.

This is kinda new for Canmore (if "new" is a problem that's been there for about two decades or more). Locals will not adapt. I've seen it first hand. Doesn't matter, though. Bulldoze them. They're unflappable in their opinions and will not concede things have changed. All you'll hear is it was better back whenever it was when they arrived.

Ever had a job where you have somebody always talking about how it used to be better back when the old boss was there, or before such-and-such rule was implemented, or before the merger, or before --insert literally anything that is different from the current situation--? That's Canmore people. They're wild.

[Bill Bumface]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

That's ok though, animals can go elsewhere. Human wins always.

We all care about the animals we can see, especially if they are fuzzy and nice looking.

There are way way more animals impacted by the resource extraction, farm and ranch land, fishing, transport infrastructure, manufacturing pollution etc. based on the way we live.

But these animals are our animals. And fish aren't really that cute anyway!

Maybe we should just bulldoze Canmore and let it go wild.

The worst part (not saying this is you Fuzz) is people that clutch to "The Bow Valley Wildlife Corridor" as their "Character of the Neighbourhood" of Elbow Park defense.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

We all care about the animals we can see, especially if they are fuzzy and nice looking.

There are way way more animals impacted by the resource extraction, farm and ranch land, fishing, transport infrastructure, manufacturing pollution etc. based on the way we live.

But these animals are our animals. And fish aren't really that cute anyway!

Maybe we should just bulldoze Canmore and let it go wild.

The worst part (not saying this is you Fuzz) is people that clutch to "The Bow Valley Wildlife Corridor" as their "Character of the Neighbourhood" of Elbow Park defense.

Hey! I already applied for zoning permits for my parking lot! Get your own goddamned Wilderness Wonderland to bulldoze!!

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Just a couple quick points here. You thought Canmore sucked in the early 90's, but the Canmore of that day was what residents loved. Canmore wasn't Banff, it was a point of pride for many.Does that help you understand why they resist turning their home into what they tried to avoid?

It sucked from a vacation/tourist perspective. It was just another Olds with a nicer backdrop. I'm sure it was wonderful if you lived there, but it wasn't a destination for people with Banff 15 minutes down the road and totally set up for non-stop fun. It would make no sense to go to Canmore (as a tourist or vacationer) back then.

Here's something else. I don't know when you moved to Calgary, but I think you'll struggle to find any Calgarian who wouldn't trade the Calgary of today for the Calgary of 1993. It was way less busy. I knew where everything was. There wasn't a neighbourhood I hadn't heard of. I knew all the schools. We'd skateboard, LRT and just generally treat the entire city as a big playground. Skate down 17th. Skate in Kensington. It was rad, but now it's a metropolis.

Why is it that Calgarians can totally accept that things have changed and not whine about it as though you and all the other people who added to our population explosion are somehow to blame for the growth? We really do accept people here without bitching about it. Traffic sucks everywhere. The city is huge. Infrastructure projects to accommodate all the new people are disruptive, time-consuming and expensive. That's okay. Such is life. We accept it and welcome people without trying to make them feel like lesser-thans.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

As for telling the residents to STFU and deal with it, I think that's kind of bull####. The residents are who built the Bow Valley for you. They are the ones who established a community, took care of the ski hills, kept Banff running, and build a town where people knew each other and cared about it. And you are gleefully tearing that down, to create a town where nobody knows each other, or cares about anything, really. Their input is more valuable than theirs, because they live in it every day and continue to contribute tot he community, whereas weekenders show up, use whatever they want, and leave. The day to day of running the town is irrelevant to them. It is not to residents. This might be obvious, given that vast majority of residents oppose this expansion. Maybe instead of lashing out at them, you could try to understand it from their perspective?

Nope, fk the residents. We were totally taken aback at the outright hostility from Canmore residents. And you didn't build the valley for me. Canadians and Albertans built the valley. I'm a Canadian and I'm an Albertan. You can parse yourself down further to a Canmorian if you want, but I don't have to accept it. BTW, even if you did build the valley for me, you have a funny way of letting me use what was apparently built for me.

And yeah, the ski hills? Sorry, you can thank Calgarians for that. There's no economy or money inside Canmore or Banff outside of what's injected from tourists, many of which are from Calgary. Plus, I did work in Banff and Lake Louise, so I consider myself a contributor to the area.

And understand their perspective? I do. They're all fkn #######s. We started off so supportive of the community, but at about the two-year mark we had an epiphany that was confirmed by all the other people with vacation homes I've spoken with: residents of Canmore loath us and are very open about outwardly displaying that hatred.

So yeah, Canmore is great. The people are the absolute worst. Can't wait until the new people coming into Canmore outnumber the old-stock residents so we can drown out their negativity.

I just don't have the interest in catering to the nostalgia and feelings a bunch of people have for a town that hasn't existed in 25 years when they could just enjoy their new and improved town. I'm working on my own life over here. Don't put your crap on me.

***

To other CPers: If you want to experience somebody trying to treat you like you're a piece of gum stuck to the bottom of their shoe, next time you're in Canmore for the day and your server, the lady helping you check out an item at the store, or the person you run into on the street asks you where you're from (they all do this, btw...it's a way of slotting you into their pecking order), tell them you live in Calgary but have a weekend condo in Canmore. You will get THE frostiest, coldest, angriest response. You'll see their entire demeanor #### in 0.0001 seconds. It's wild.

Now if my wife and I aren't in the mood to deal with Canmore local BS we just say we're from Calgary for the day. That makes things easier, but sometimes I'll tell the truth just to see them transform to show their inner a-hole.

Another fun thing we do is say we live in Canmore. You can really get some dirt on what they think of people with a vacation property here. You see Fuzz talking about "weekenders" and "empty houses" and the ruining of "the community" so openly here, right? And he's a nice guy! Well, you should hear those words when there is a hateful tone and ugly look on somebody's face. It's seriously messed up. Closest thing a Canadian white guy will ever get to experiencing a smidgen of what racism must feel like to a minority. They seriously fkn hate us there.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I don’t understand why people think a bigger Canmore will mean more affordable housing. As the population of southern Alberta grows, the number of people with deep pockets who will be willing to buy into new properties in a prime location like Canmore will greatly exceed the number of new units, even if they build thousands. That’s the way resort towns work - they don’t get cheaper.

A Canmore at 2x the population of today will be just as expensive. It will just mean more restaurants and stores employing more service workers who have nowhere to live.

Yeah, I'm not sure why the idea of induced demand for roadways is generally an accepted principle (basically if you add another lane to a highway, more people will choose to drive and you end up in more or less the same place as before), but not when it comes to recreational housing. If you increase the supply of of units in a resort town, even if it depresses prices slightly, you're just going to get demand to replace it in any realistic scenario. Property developers aren't in the business of killing their own margins, which is why they introduce these things in phases, so their supply can meet the demand at a rate that keeps prices high. And if prices do fall for whatever reason, they'll just stop building.

The problem is that income inequality (as well as asset inequality when you consider help from parents or inheritance) is such that the people who can afford to buy houses and secondary properties are further from the people who can't than in the past. In other words, in the 1970s, the average income in the 6th to 8th deciles (middle-to-upper-middle class) was about 40% higher than the average in the 3rd to 5th deciles (working and middle class). Currently it's over 90% higher.

So even if price to income ratios were totally normal, the income disparity is simply too much for the bottom 30-40% to really overcome. When a working class family in the 1970s could afford to buy a modest house, it wasn't really because housing was ridiculously cheap. It was because the large middle class group they were competing with weren't earning 2x the income they were.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Bill Bumface

We all care about the animals we can see, especially if they are fuzzy and nice looking.

There are way way more animals impacted by the resource extraction, farm and ranch land, fishing, transport infrastructure, manufacturing pollution etc. based on the way we live.

But these animals are our animals. And fish aren't really that cute anyway!

Maybe we should just bulldoze Canmore and let it go wild.

The worst part (not saying this is you Fuzz) is people that clutch to "The Bow Valley Wildlife Corridor" as their "Character of the Neighbourhood" of Elbow Park defense.

I'm just acknowledging that many mistakes have been made in the way large animal areas are manged in and around Canmore. Building in what is well known to be one of the last transit points in the valley will ultimately lead to more human/wildlife conflicts in which animals get killed for existing where condos are built. I also acknowledge that nobody cares. That doesn't change the fact this is going to have a major negative impact.

[Locke]

I pronounce...."The Judgement of Solomon!"

If the Canmorons and the people who actually pay for Canmore cant agree...then it shall be torn in twain!

I promise that nobody will enjoy where I draw the line...

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'm just acknowledging that many mistakes have been made in the way large animal areas are manged in and around Canmore. Building in what is well known to be one of the last transit points in the valley will ultimately lead to more human/wildlife conflicts in which animals get killed for existing where condos are built. I also acknowledge that nobody cares. That doesn't change the fact this is going to have a major negative impact.

Didn't this problem begin when the first house was built there? Did you go around guilting your neighbours when you were growing up in Canmore for what you guys had done to the land and the habitat? Or did this just become a problem to obsess over once it got to a size that you didn't like?

I will say this, I'm a metric fk ton more respectful of the area than the people that blew up half the mountain across the highway and dumped a bunch of coal mining poisons into the river. Canmore today is much more ecologically friendly to the area than it was 100 years ago, that I'm sure of.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Didn't this problem begin when the first house was built there? Did you go around guilting your neighbours when you were growing up in Canmore for what you guys had done to the land and the habitat? Or did this just become a problem to obsess over once it got to a size that you didn't like?

I will say this, I'm a metric fk ton more respectful of the area than the people that blew up half the mountain across the highway and dumped a bunch of coal mining poisons into the river. Canmore today is much more ecologically friendly to the area than it was 100 years ago, that I'm sure of.

Wait what? Since when were we not allowed to dump things into the river? I threw a couch in there just the other day...I thought that was allowed?

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Locke

Wait what? Since when were we not allowed to dump things into the river? I threw a couch in there just the other day...I thought that was allowed?

Just tell them you're a weekender. They expect that from us.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Didn't this problem begin when the first house was built there? Did you go around guilting your neighbours when you were growing up in Canmore for what you guys had done to the land and the habitat? Or did this just become a problem to obsess over once it got to a size that you didn't like?

I will say this, I'm a metric fk ton more respectful of the area than the people that blew up half the mountain across the highway and dumped a bunch of coal mining poisons into the river. Canmore today is much more ecologically friendly to the area than it was 100 years ago, that I'm sure of.

It's not that hard a concept to get. Nature has a carrying capacity. When Canmore was small, large animals would pass through it, or go around. There wasn't much traffic or people to get in the way. As more developments occurred, animals had to go further around, and as density increased had more interactions if they had to go through. They don't go through anymore(not like they did when i was a kid, anyway).

Then places like Silvertip and Peaks of Grassi went it, removing the upper margins of the valley for animal transit on both sides. Now a massive N/S corridor is going to have shops and condos in the way. I know, you don't care. But you asked.

It's weird having to explain that a small town has less negative impact and interactions than a large one. It's kind of obvious.

And yes, we were critical of developments back then that were unnatural. There was a big thing around the river dyke, but it was ultimately deemed necessary. I remember a friend pulling marker stakes along the river path, because the old natural path was seen as better. There were many decisions made even back then that were debated.