Training Camp Day 5 Notes: Mangiapane-Kadri-Phillips

[Paulie Walnuts]

The NHL isn't the AHL, and one hit in the AHL doesn't make him physical not that he has to be, but he will have to fight through bigger players and tighter checking.

[TheIronMaiden]

If Phillips doesn't make the NHL it will not be because of his size, it will be because he is not good enough. I think that the size conspiracy is unfounded.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

If Phillips doesn't make the NHL it will not be because of his size, it will be because he is not good enough. I think that the size conspiracy is unfounded.

I don't think there is a conspiracy of any kind. Of course it will depend on whether he is good enough or not. And part of that is being able to handle the physicality of the NHL.

This isn't complicated. There is no conspiracy, or bias against smaller players. Hockey is a physical game - pushing through that physicality, in order to succeed, is part of the process. That is all there is to it. Every team wants to ice the best team possible. If Phillips can prove he is part of that solution, he'll play.

[Derek Sutton]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

If Phillips doesn't make the NHL it will not be because of his size, it will be because he is not good enough. I think that the size conspiracy is unfounded.

Not good enough for his size. It’s not his speed, skill, energy, work ethic or attitude, it’s his size. Why does Brett Ritchie have an NHL contract and Phillips doesn’t?

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Not good enough for his size. It’s not his speed, skill, energy, work ethic or attitude, it’s his size. Why does Brett Ritchie have an NHL contract and Phillips doesn’t?

How come Dube plays every night and Ritchie doesn't? Phillips has to be as good as Dube if he wants to make the team.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Derek Sutton

Not good enough for his size. It’s not his speed, skill, energy, work ethic or attitude, it’s his size. Why does Brett Ritchie have an NHL contract and Phillips doesn’t?

is this a serious question? totally different roles

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

There is no ... bias against smaller players.

You sincerely believe that?

There is always a bias against small players and for larger players, and that is exclusive of performance. No one is saying that playing well in physical situations is not a factor, or even that size cannot be a disadvantage or advantage. But that bias absolutely exists and is used to overwrite every other fact about performance with hypotheticals.

By denying it, you're not disproving its existence, only proving your own susceptibility to it.

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

How come Dube plays every night and Ritchie doesn't? Phillips has to be as good as Dube if he wants to make the team.

Which of these two players spent half a season on a line with Gaudreau? Hint: it wasn't the NHL calibre forward.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

You sincerely believe that?

There is always a bias against small players and for larger players, and that is exclusive of performance. No one is saying that playing well in physical situations is not a factor, or even that size cannot be a disadvantage or advantage. But that bias absolutely exists and is used to overwrite every other fact about performance with hypotheticals.

By denying it, you're not disproving its existence, only proving your own susceptibility to it.



Which of these two players spent half a season on a line with Gaudreau? Hint: it wasn't the NHL calibre forward.

Every team wants to win. Gaudreau was not held back. And there are plenty of other small players in the NHL. All Phillips has to do is show that he can be more effective than Milano/Pelletier/Ruzicka/Eakin at NHL speed, and with NHL physicality.

If he does that, he'll play.

The only bias I see is yours, as you respond every single time size is mentioned.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

You sincerely believe that?

There is always a bias against small players and for larger players, and that is exclusive of performance. No one is saying that playing well in physical situations is not a factor, or even that size cannot be a disadvantage or advantage. But that bias absolutely exists and is used to overwrite every other fact about performance with hypotheticals.

By denying it, you're not disproving its existence, only proving your own susceptibility to it.



Which of these two players spent half a season on a line with Gaudreau? Hint: it wasn't the NHL calibre forward.

There are definitely roles on a team, but I would not call them bias.

There are defined spots reserved for physical forwards, and defined spots of penalty killers, and defined spots for players who are offensive specialists. Phillips is not trying out for Ritchie's, Lucic or Kadri's roll on the team, he is fighting against Dube, Millano, ect.

I think that you're tending to extremes, Teams don't need to be all "skilled" or all "physical". Good NHL teams are balanced. Bias implies that you would refuse to have a small offensive minded player on your team, which is not true. Like it or not, if you want to play on an NHL team you need to fill a niche. The niches that Phillips can fulfil are reduced because he is not going to be a psychical presence, but that doesn't mean that he doesn't have legitimate rolls he can play . Sure he is trying out for a limited roll. If you want to call that bias do ahead. But I think that every player is trying out for limited rolls. The only players who don't are so good teams build around them.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Every team wants to win. Gaudreau was not held back.

Gaudreau was a 104th overall pick with the talent and production to go 1st overall. But there is no size bias.
Gaudreau was an elite penalty killer at every level, yet never asked to kill penalties for the Flames, yet there is no size bias.

And there are plenty of other small players in the NHL.

Plenty who... overcame a size bias that you dent existing.

All Phillips has to do is show that he can be more effective than Milano/Pelletier/Ruzicka/Eakin at NHL speed, and with NHL physicality.

If he does that, he'll play.

Well, no. He's outperformed Ruzicka on a daily basis for their entire pro careers, and yet has played 3% of what Ruzicka has. But sure, frame it however you want and deny the existence of bias in subjective evaluation in professional sports.

The only bias I see is yours, as you respond every single time size is mentioned.

In a thread where the conversation about a player's capability consists of:

- dismissing him for his size ("There's a reason why the Flames have been hesitant to give Phillips a shot with the big club and it all boils down to size. " and "Phillips was never getting a shot while Gaudreau was here.") - as if a player cannot prove their individual worth if another player simply exists of the same size - that other player most probably on a different line - yet "no size bias exists". Because apparently it's not a "bias", it's a written rule in hockey that must be followed, and anyone not following that rule is disqualified from competition instead of letting performance dictate results.

- contrived descriptions of that player's skillset ("offensive specialist, no penalty killing ability") for a player who was among his team leaders in shorthanded goals the previous season.


You're welcome to continue denying the existence of size bias and framing it as a me problem, though.

[TheScorpion]

I do think most of the discourse about why Phillips hasn't played comes down to appeals to authority ("clearly the Flames don't think he's good enough") whereas they could've easily just not tendered him or signed him years ago if that were the case.

But I also think the discussion of bias is largely pointless. Phillips is having a great camp. He's getting opportunities. In the past, he hasn't had great camps. He didn't get opportunities. And then when he had great regular seasons, the Flames had already set their rosters and no opportunities came because they were pretty much fully healthy. Simple as that.

Phillips has earned an NHL shot and I think it'll come, and I think the only thing left to do is watch what unfolds. His stock has certainly risen from where it was a week ago.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Gaudreau was a 104th overall pick with the talent and production to go 1st overall. But there is no size bias.
Gaudreau was an elite penalty killer at every level, yet never asked to kill penalties for the Flames, yet there is no size bias.



Plenty who... overcame a size bias that you dent existing.



Well, no. He's outperformed Ruzicka on a daily basis for their entire pro careers, and yet has played 3% of what Ruzicka has. But sure, frame it however you want and deny the existence of bias in subjective evaluation in professional sports.



In a thread where the conversation about a player's capability consists of:

- dismissing him for his size ("There's a reason why the Flames have been hesitant to give Phillips a shot with the big club and it all boils down to size. " and "Phillips was never getting a shot while Gaudreau was here.") - as if a player cannot prove their individual worth if another player simply exists of the same size - that other player most probably on a different line - yet "no size bias exists". Because apparently it's not a "bias", it's a written rule in hockey that must be followed, and anyone not following that rule is disqualified from competition instead of letting performance dictate results.

- contrived descriptions of that player's skillset ("offensive specialist, no penalty killing ability") for a player who was among his team leaders in shorthanded goals the previous season.


You're welcome to continue denying the existence of size bias and framing it as a me problem, though.

Just so we are clear, you are stating that the size of a player makes no difference while playing in the NHL?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

Just so we are clear, you are stating that the size of a player makes no difference while playing in the NHL?

No, I did not say that anywhere in the post you quoted. If I did, please bold that part so I may elaborate.

[Paulie Walnuts]

The bias exists because teams want to win, and to win you have to compete against bigger, faster, more physical teams like a Tampa, Colorado, St. Louis etc. That's just a fact, teams littered with small players are going to to be dummied. People will just have to get over it because their favorite AHL player who is 5'8 hasn't made the team the previous years.

[TheScorpion]

Size matters. It just does. But I think in some instances, a lack of size is automatically construed as a negative, whereas players like Phillips use their low centre of gravity to their advantage in a lot of ways — but they also get knocked off the puck more easily.

Saying "he doesn't have the size to be effective" is a take that lacks nuance. Players of extremely small stature can be limited, but so can players with extremely large stature — there isn't any one hard-and-fast rule. I would say in Phillips' case, he uses the agility afforded to him by his frame to his advantage and isn't often manhandled anymore, having been taken advantage of more liberally in the past. Nowadays, that isn't as much of a factor, and that's largely come as a result of him having put on 25-30 pounds since he was drafted.

The Flames almost certainly look at these situations with more nuance — they don't just look at a guy and write him off because they're already at their quota of small players. If he can push play and help the team, he should get a shot.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I don't think there is a conspiracy of any kind. Of course it will depend on whether he is good enough or not. And part of that is being able to handle the physicality of the NHL.

This isn't complicated. There is no conspiracy, or bias against smaller players. Hockey is a physical game - pushing through that physicality, in order to succeed, is part of the process. That is all there is to it. Every team wants to ice the best team possible. If Phillips can prove he is part of that solution, he'll play.

Yeah hockey players have a toolbox of skills

- speed
- size
- hockey IQ
- shot

if you're lacking in two of them you're probably not going to make it. Phillips has to overcome the size issue just as a prospect without boots has to overcome the lack of speed

The only thing unfair to me (but understandable) would be players given more of a chance based on either a) being a high draft pick or b) being a team's own draft pick

But as I say ... that's somewhat understandable.

[dino7c]

next he's going to tell me there is a height bias in the NBA

[btimbit]

All the size does is limit his role, and therefore his opportunities. He can't fall back on being a grinder or a tough guy. He's either going to make it as a skilled player, or he's not going to make it.

As far as getting pushed around the AHL is a tougher league. He either has NHL skill, or doesn't

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Every team wants to win. Gaudreau was not held back. And there are plenty of other small players in the NHL. All Phillips has to do is show that he can be more effective than Milano/Pelletier/Ruzicka/Eakin at NHL speed, and with NHL physicality.

If he does that, he'll play.

The only bias I see is yours, as you respond every single time size is mentioned.

I disagree.

A smaller player can only play certain roles on the team. They can't really forecheck, go to the boards, defend especially well, etc...

Pelletier could easily develop into a gritty mid-six guy. With Phillips it's offensive boom or bust. Phillips will essentially need to be a 60+ point player to ever play consistently in the NHL.

[dino7c]

Yep, its why you don't go all skinny guy in ice hockey on nes