Sutter re: recalling prospects

[TheScorpion]

Can't say I disagree:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1482048523583438849

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The "re-building Flames" 14-15 to 18-19 were way more willing to give rookies, and younger players a shot on the roster. More smaller players got a shot too.

The "???? Flames" from 19-20 to 21-22 have really started to default to giving any open roster spot to veterans. Size has become more of a priority in these seasons as well.

IMO the Flames really mis-read what happened in that 18-19 playoff season to Colorado.

The takeaway they had coming out of that series (and Treliving has said this publically) was that they needed to add more veterans, be bigger, and harder to play against.

Somehow they came out of that series thinking the problem was they were pushed around, when really the problem was that Colorado was the much, much faster team, and with the addition of Makar were the more skilled team.

And they outskated and outskilled the Flames in that series, especially the top guys.

Since that 18/19 season, Treliving hasn’t acquired a single player who would be viewed as a skilled/offensive player at the NHL level, which explains the complete lack of offensive depth on the main roster.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Since that 18/19 season, Treliving hasn’t acquired a single player who would be viewed as a skilled/offensive player at the NHL level, which explains the complete lack of offensive depth on the main roster.

True. That’s two seasons now. But many GMs did acquire high skilled players via UFA or trade in that period? Guys like Dubas didn’t in that period. It’s pretty hard to get them outside the draft, especially when you are also trying to get a top goalie, like he did.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

True. That’s two seasons now. But many GMs did acquire high skilled players via UFA or trade in that period? Guys like Dubas didn’t in that period. It’s pretty hard to get them outside the draft, especially when you are also trying to get a top goalie, like he did.

Is Dubas a good example? That is another GM who should be feeling the heat.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

True. That’s two seasons now. But many GMs did acquire high skilled players via UFA or trade in that period? Guys like Dubas didn’t in that period. It’s pretty hard to get them outside the draft, especially when you are also trying to get a top goalie, like he did.

That's three offseasons now.

In 2019 you could argue he had a deal to do by trying to acquire Kadri+Brown for Brodie+Janko, and that fell through.

It's tough to make a trade in the NHL but I do think it was a mistake to not try to move those guys in a different deal after that well publicized trade fell through.

In 2020 he prioritized re-building the back end by adding Tanev and Markstrom. Personally I had wanted Toffoli that offseason and would have been okay with bringing back Talbot instead of getting Markstrom.

And really he did bring in a skilled forward in Coleman in 2021, who while hasn't put up points this year is a strong play driver, that can put up 20 goals while being great defensively. So while it's not a pure offensive game changer, he's still a good addition to the forward group.

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Is Dubas a good example? That is another GM who should be feeling the heat.

The difference is that Dubas team hasn't really needed top 9 scoring, so it's not an apples to apples comparison.

And I don't think I agree that Dubas should be feeling the heat.

Over the last three seasons the Leafs are 91-49-19 and have a top 10 record in the league. This year they are .700 and are a top 5 team so far. They haven't had playoff success yet, but the last two COVID Bubble playoffs are tough to judge a GM by and I think you need to look at the entire piece of work.

If he's on the hot seat though then I guess only really Brisebois job should be safe.

[Monahammer]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Can't say I disagree:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1482048523583438849

Monahan and Backlund really need something different. Maybe trying them together is the answer? I don't know at this point, just not more of the same as that is not working for either of them.

Coleman-dube-Mangiapane feels like it's missing something to me.

nothing against philips, but I would rather try:

Monahan-Backlund-Mangiapane

Lucic-Dube-Coleman

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

The difference is that Dubas team hasn't really needed top 9 scoring, so it's not an apples to apples comparison.

And I don't think I agree that Dubas should be feeling the heat.

Over the last three seasons the Leafs are 91-49-19 and have a top 10 record in the league. This year they are .700 and are a top 5 team so far. They haven't had playoff success yet, but the last two COVID Bubble playoffs are tough to judge a GM by and I think you need to look at the entire piece of work.

If he's on the hot seat though then I guess only really Brisebois job should be safe.

Leafs have not won a playoff series since 2004. Find me a Leaf’s fan that cares about their regular season success at this point. Fair or not in that market they demand playoff success and he will definitely feel the heat if they lose again.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Monahammer

Monahan and Backlund really need something different. Maybe trying them together is the answer? I don't know at this point, just not more of the same as that is not working for either of them.

Coleman-dube-Mangiapane feels like it's missing something to me.

nothing against philips, but I would rather try:

Monahan-Backlund-Mangiapane

Lucic-Dube-Coleman

I don’t mind those, though I would also like to see Monahan-Backlund-Coleman, which I think would fare better if Sutter is trying to match Backlund against a top line from the other team.

[Patek23]

I don't think Phillips will ever be an NHLer. There are players who can overcome being small but people who say size doesn't matter are crazy.It's a physical league. If you take two identically skilled players but with 2 inches and 20 pounds difference between them. The larger player produces better every time. You can be small and be successful, hell great even. But you have to be better in a lot of areas then the guys that are bigger then you to make up for that disadvantage.

Every preseason Phillips never impresses and he goes down to the AHL and succeeds. There's a reason for that. There are a lot of guys who rack it up in the AHL and it doesn't cross over into the big leagues. Too me, Phillips seems exactly like that kind of player.

Having said that, I still think he should get a chance. You don't draft the player without trying too transition that player into your team. I just don't think right nows the time. It's not exactly putting him in a position to succeed when your averaging a goal a game on a 4 game losing skid and bringing up your under sized prospect in too cure your scoring woes. Need to find the answer in the room first and get back to the level of effort and execution from earlier in the season.

A better time to call him up would be inevitably further down the season when injuries come up and can give him that cup of coffee in a lower expectation situation. Calling him up now puts a lot of unneccesary burden on his shoulders to be "that guy" and if your a fan of him and wanting him to stick with the big league, now seems like a recipe for disaster in seeing him succeed.

[scobel]

I really wonder if it is time to break up the top line. I understand they are one of the top lines in the league but it is also obvious they are not going to win enough hockey games on their own. Maybe something a bit old school with the new players.

Gaudreau Monahan Coleman - Coleman plays in your face, has speed and might open it up for Monahan. Monahan was shooting more last game and I am optimistic his head is getting right
Tkachuk Lindholm Mangiapane- would likely be your #1 line, tough to complain to much how any of them have performed this year
Lucic Backlund Dube- Have had some chemistry in the past and I feel Lucic can drag Backlund into the fight, once Backlund is engaged he can become relentless.
Ritchie Richardson Lewis- This is your 4th line, really like Lewis and they would be able to maintain puck possession and not give anything up.

For the defense I am not to sure what you can do there, they really need someone more dependable then Zadorov. I would be interested in what a guy like Mackey can do. Or even Stone getting a few more games, he doesn't tend to have the mistakes Zadorov has. Maybe something like.

Kylington Andersson- Kylington has the speed and really can cover a lot of the mistakes, this is obvious a line best suited for your offense zone starts,
Hanifin Tanev- this would be your shutdown/ defense zone pairing
Mackey Gudbranson - Gudbranson plays a simple game but is not quick enough to cover his partners mistakes, either Stone or Mackey ( really tough to judge his decision making without seeing more) I think would be a better partner.

On a side note I think Zadorov is the type of player that just needs to sit a few games as a constant reminder not to do too much. when he plays simple and doesn't try to get to fancy or make the big plays he is better. You could probably say that about a few of our defensemen.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Disagree with the bolded.

The most important thing is to develop these players to their high point, not just hurdle the lowest bar on the NHL club.

If bringing up Pelletier too quickly sets him back, then what was the point of being a bit better than the team's worst forward?

The players the OP bolded were all wrong, but the sentiment was 100% right. This team really has 3 players in the entire bottom 3 lines that are consistently doing anything positive for the team (Mangiapane, Lucic and Coleman). Backlund is fine but he's certainly not doing enough this season. If you don't think there's room there for players like Pelletier, or yes, even Ruzicka to take some minutes, what exactly would it take?

Ritchie, Pitlick, Richardson, Lewis and yes, even Monahan are awful players that barely move the needle in any direction. Dube isn't far off with the exception he seems to jump out once or twice every handful of games. You can maybe manage having 1-2 of these guys on your roster, but when they're potentially all in the lineup at the same time you're in big trouble.

Do you honestly think Pelletier would be ruined if he were playing 12 minutes a night with second unit PP time for 6-8 games? Doubtful. If anything, at least he get's a taste of the show and what it takes to reach this level. Best case he takes off and runs with it and the team starts to get back on track too. Youthful energy and skill goes a long way in the doldrums of the season.

[Stanley]

Originally Posted by scobel

I really wonder if it is time to break up the top line. I understand they are one of the top lines in the league but it is also obvious they are not going to win enough hockey games on their own. Maybe something a bit old school with the new players.

Gaudreau Monahan Coleman - Coleman plays in your face, has speed and might open it up for Monahan. Monahan was shooting more last game and I am optimistic his head is getting right
Tkachuk Lindholm Mangiapane- would likely be your #1 line, tough to complain to much how any of them have performed this year
Lucic Backlund Dube- Have had some chemistry in the past and I feel Lucic can drag Backlund into the fight, once Backlund is engaged he can become relentless.
Ritchie Richardson Lewis- This is your 4th line, really like Lewis and they would be able to maintain puck possession and not give anything up.

For the defense I am not to sure what you can do there, they really need someone more dependable then Zadorov. I would be interested in what a guy like Mackey can do. Or even Stone getting a few more games, he doesn't tend to have the mistakes Zadorov has. Maybe something like.

Kylington Andersson- Kylington has the speed and really can cover a lot of the mistakes, this is obvious a line best suited for your offense zone starts,
Hanifin Tanev- this would be your shutdown/ defense zone pairing
Mackey Gudbranson - Gudbranson plays a simple game but is not quick enough to cover his partners mistakes, either Stone or Mackey ( really tough to judge his decision making without seeing more) I think would be a better partner.

On a side note I think Zadorov is the type of player that just needs to sit a few games as a constant reminder not to do too much. when he plays simple and doesn't try to get to fancy or make the big plays he is better. You could probably say that about a few of our defensemen.

I was thinking the exact same thing...what do we have to lose at this point? maybe it gets Mony going again?

[HighLifeMan]

Everyone loves to dump on Monahan but I think everyone can acknowledge that he's playing in a role that is simply not suited for his skillset while having zero talent to work with. He certainly hasn't had the leash Backlund/Dube have had for example. Backlund has 7 points in his last 25 games. Dillon Dube has 4 points in his last 22 games... what's the excuse for these guys who have actually been given the freedom and rope with quality line mates to produce? The bottom 9 forwards on this roster are not clicking and the results as of late should be no surprise.

Brett Ritchie, Brad Richardson, and Trevor Lewis do not belong on an NHL rosters at this point in their careers, and Tyler Pitlick at best should be on your 4th line and not a staple in your middle six. The lack of offensive ability in the bottom half of the roster is a major issue. You look at Tampa's 4th line with Katchouk, Raddysh and Colton and see why they continue to have success. That's a young, big, fast, AND skilled 4th line that doesn't get consistently caved in.

[Mindtravellee]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Can't say I disagree:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1482048523583438849

Before this loaded, you got my hopes up