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Old 08-20-2021, 12:44 PM   #141
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I guess we'll have another team playing in a saddledome era building if they move to Veterans Coliseum.

That building is almost 20 years older than the Saddledome (opened in 1965), and doesn't appear to have received any significant renovations over the years.
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Old 08-20-2021, 12:51 PM   #142
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That building is almost 20 years older than the Saddledome (opened in 1965), and doesn't appear to have received any significant renovations over the years.
Yes, era was not fully accurate I guess. Sure shares a similar look though.
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Old 08-20-2021, 01:04 PM   #143
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That building is almost 20 years older than the Saddledome (opened in 1965), and doesn't appear to have received any significant renovations over the years.
This would only be needed for a couple of years - but i don't see it.
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Old 08-20-2021, 01:07 PM   #144
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Metro pop of 2.1 million, 2x bigger than Calgary.
Houston's metro pop is over 7 million. That's the comparison.

But if you want, compare the hockey fan population of KC versus Calgary. That's why Houston being so huge is a factor - you need a smaller percentage to be attracted to the game. Plus Houston is rife with head offices who will want in on seasons tix and boxes.
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Old 08-20-2021, 01:08 PM   #145
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The fact that the league has fought so hard to keep the team in Phoenix flies in the face of your argument that franchise value is the only factor.
I listed the two factors, didn't say franchise value was the only factor. But it is huge.

Let's not get snippy here. I firmly believe that if franchises were freely moving from city to city that the group in Seattle would never have ponied up $600 million for an expansion franchise.

Limiting franchise movement absolutely keeps the value of an NHL franchise high. IMO that is precisely why they have fought so hard to make a franchise work in Phoenix.
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Old 08-20-2021, 01:10 PM   #146
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Houston's metro pop is over 7 million. That's the comparison.

But if you want, compare the hockey fan population of KC versus Calgary. That's why Houston being so huge is a factor - you need a smaller percentage to be attracted to the game. Plus Houston is rife with head offices who will want in on seasons tix and boxes.
Houston is a bigger market than all of the prairies combined.
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Old 08-20-2021, 01:10 PM   #147
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This would only be needed for a couple of years - but i don't see it.
Jordan! what's your take on current ownership? Do they want to continue to own a sports franchise and have deep pockets to endure more losses or will they be looking to sell?
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Old 08-20-2021, 01:14 PM   #148
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Houston is a bigger market than all of the prairies combined.
Yeah, Houston would probably have been in the league long ago but for the issue the old owner of the arena had with hockey. It's a way better fit than a half dozen other cities already in the league.
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Old 08-20-2021, 01:26 PM   #149
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Yeah, Houston would probably have been in the league long ago but for the issue the old owner of the arena had with hockey. It's a way better fit than a half dozen other cities already in the league.
Really? As much as I want hockey in Houston, the best comparables IMO are Atlanta, Miami and Dallas. Kind of hit and miss.

While I believe hockey in Houston would work, it's not guaranteed.
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Old 08-20-2021, 01:46 PM   #150
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Jordan! what's your take on current ownership? Do they want to continue to own a sports franchise and have deep pockets to endure more losses or will they be looking to sell?
Current ownership has money, wants to keep it running, is making the correct steps to secure land in the right area of the valley and pay for the project without public money.

This Glendale thing is very spiteful on the City's part and misguided imo.

It could really Eff things up for the team when the owners have been taking the right steps for their business to run well long term in this location.

So done with Gongdale..

edit: Arizona law allows only Tribal land or to be an owner of a Sports franchise to have a sports book at your arena/location so that's a big key to the Coyotes ownership wanting to keep the team in Arizona no matter what. You're not getting that revenue stream anywhere else.

Last edited by Jordan!; 08-20-2021 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 08-20-2021, 01:55 PM   #151
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I listed the two factors, didn't say franchise value was the only factor. But it is huge.

Let's not get snippy here. I firmly believe that if franchises were freely moving from city to city that the group in Seattle would never have ponied up $600 million for an expansion franchise.

Limiting franchise movement absolutely keeps the value of an NHL franchise high. IMO that is precisely why they have fought so hard to make a franchise work in Phoenix.
Um, no one is getting snippy
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Old 08-20-2021, 01:59 PM   #152
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Really? As much as I want hockey in Houston, the best comparables IMO are Atlanta, Miami and Dallas. Kind of hit and miss.

While I believe hockey in Houston would work, it's not guaranteed.
Houston, for all that it's down south, is way less "southern" than most of those places. Much more cosmopolitan, for a southern US city and a lot more money IMO. Their other pro hockey teams have done OK - I mean they know who Gordie Howe is, so they've got that going for them. And the AHL team didn't move because of low attendance - they moved because of arena disputes with Les Alexander. And way more ex pats (aside from snowbirds in Miami who don't have a lot of disposable income anyway). A lot of Calgarians split time working in Houston and here.

Dallas is the closest comparable and it does pretty well.
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Old 08-20-2021, 02:05 PM   #153
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I guess we'll have another team playing in a saddledome era building if they move to Veterans Coliseum.


The Madhouse on McDowell! bring back the Road Runners.
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Old 08-20-2021, 02:09 PM   #154
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Houston, for all that it's down south, is way less "southern" than most of those places. Much more cosmopolitan, for a southern US city and a lot more money IMO. Their other pro hockey teams have done OK - I mean they know who Gordie Howe is, so they've got that going for them. And the AHL team didn't move because of low attendance - they moved because of arena disputes with Les Alexander. And way more ex pats (aside from snowbirds in Miami who don't have a lot of disposable income anyway). A lot of Calgarians split time working in Houston and here.

Dallas is the closest comparable and it does pretty well.
The Aeros didn't do that great at all. 7th in AHL attendance in their final season, in a city 10x bigger than rest of league. But many say that's because they weren't a big league team, which is understandable. And I'll let you know the next time I run into a Houstonian who remembers Gordie Howe.

I don't know if cosmopolitan is the word I'd use for Houston but it is diverse. Large Latino population which historically is not a strong hockey market.

The difference in minor hockey between Dallas and Houston is immense too. Way more rinks, players and elite programs in Dallas.

So we'll see, It's no slam dunk. The oil connection with Calgary is real but you'd expect more youth hockey as a result.

The biggest thing going for Houston is it's size.
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Old 08-20-2021, 02:11 PM   #155
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Really? As much as I want hockey in Houston, the best comparables IMO are Atlanta, Miami and Dallas. Kind of hit and miss.

While I believe hockey in Houston would work, it's not guaranteed.
I imagine a Dallas vs. Houston rivalry would be a good catalyst. BOT!?
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Old 08-20-2021, 02:40 PM   #156
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The Aeros didn't do that great at all. 7th in AHL attendance in their final season, in a city 10x bigger than rest of league. But many say that's because they weren't a big league team, which is understandable. And I'll let you know the next time I run into a Houstonian who remembers Gordie Howe.

I don't know if cosmopolitan is the word I'd use for Houston but it is diverse. Large Latino population which historically is not a strong hockey market.

The difference in minor hockey between Dallas and Houston is immense too. Way more rinks, players and elite programs in Dallas.

So we'll see, It's no slam dunk. The oil connection with Calgary is real but you'd expect more youth hockey as a result.

The biggest thing going for Houston is it's size.
7th in a lame duck final season, out of 30 teams. 5th the year before. Ahead of the Marlies, and behind Chicago, Hershey (an institution), and other northern cities.

The arenas and youth hockey thing is a bit of a chicken and egg thing IMO.

I would make a small wager that Houston could be better attended than Seattle.
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Old 08-20-2021, 02:45 PM   #157
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7th in a lame duck final season, out of 30 teams. 5th the year before. Ahead of the Marlies, and behind Chicago, Hershey (an institution), and other northern cities.

The arenas and youth hockey thing is a bit of a chicken and egg thing IMO.

I would make a small wager that Houston could be better attended than Seattle.
Bring on the pube bet!
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Old 08-20-2021, 02:47 PM   #158
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Bring on the pube bet!
I said small.
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Old 08-20-2021, 04:14 PM   #159
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7th in a lame duck final season, out of 30 teams. 5th the year before. Ahead of the Marlies, and behind Chicago, Hershey (an institution), and other northern cities.

The arenas and youth hockey thing is a bit of a chicken and egg thing IMO.

I would make a small wager that Houston could be better attended than Seattle.
FWIW that wasn't really a lame duck season, with move not announced until April (although speculated by some during the season). And if you look at attendance since 2000, it was consistently between 5,000 and 6,500, with one outlier at 7,300.

Houston is not a hockey town. Now could you find enough fans in a city with metro population over 7 million and some western Canadians working here? You'd think so. You'd also expect more than 3 functioning hockey rinks. You shouldn't need an NHL team for that. How many in Seattle?
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Old 08-20-2021, 04:48 PM   #160
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Things the NHL doesn't really care about:

Even number of teams in divisions and conferences
Reducing travel
Divisional alignments that make geographic sense
History of the sport

Things they do care about:

Maximizing franchise value
Maximizing TV and gate revenue

I generally agree with you, but any decision/comparison is definitely multi-factorial. I think it's safe to say the 32 NHL franchises are not currently located for optimal revenue generation...optimal maximum franchise value for certain owners, but not on aggregate.


If the ultimate $$ projections are close between different markets, then the other factors can definitely be a tie-breaker (though really it boils down to right-place, right-time, right-money).



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I imagine a Dallas vs. Houston rivalry would be a good catalyst. BOT!?

Only took 28 years to happen in Florida...
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