Tear it down? Can this fanbase get behind a rebuild?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Ha ha wrong.

https://www.vicnews.com/news/b-c-pop...ehind-alberta/

So you're quoting another projection, and ignoring the elephant in the room, which is that the principal industry of Alberta is set to become illegal.

Before Leduc #1 came in, Alberta had a smaller population than Saskatchewan. Take away the economic basis for having a larger population, and the people will migrate elsewhere.

Don't believe it? Ask Detroit.

[Jay Random]

nm

[Matata]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

They did a rebuild. It didn't work out. Most rebuilds don't. You were watching it happen, but evidently didn't notice.

Rebuild is bottom feeder for a few years while you collect very high draft picks.

Flames have retooled, they've pivoted, but they've always spent to the cap, only got a 4th and 2x 6th overall and there was only a few seasons where they weren't trying to bolster the team at the trade deadline. They thought Johnny, Mony and Bennett were all going to be elite players and pulled out of a rebuild to see if combining them with a still elite Gio would be enough to put them over the top. It wasn't and every version of that team is going to be worse than the previous one, it's a slow descent from here and I'd rather see it all burnt down instead.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by troutman

Updated:

Alberta projects population will reach about 6.4 million by 2046

https://edmonton.ctvnews.ca/alberta-...2046-1.5495574

Alberta continues to lose residents to other parts of Canada

https://www.atb.com/company/insights...-quarter-2021/

Yep The article I linked did say between 6 and 7.4 million by 2043 so Alberta could be closer to 6 million but that will vary with the ebbs and flows. The poster that said Alberta's population would be falling to Saskatchewan was laughably incorrect.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yep The article I linked did say between 6 and 7.4 million by 2043 so Alberta could be closer to 6 million but that will vary with the ebbs and flows. The poster that said Alberta's population would be falling to Saskatchewan was laughably incorrect.

That was me, and I stand by it. The only reason Alberta's population rose above Saskatchewan's in the first place is oil and gas, and if that gets shut down, huge numbers of people will have to leave if they ever want to work again.

[NewFan]

I'm for rebuild. But it should start right now. Otherwise it will be too late and we won't have assets to trade for good draft picks and prospect. And we need lots of luck and few smart people to find great young players and to build a contender.

In the other hand, after watching playoffs, I'm OK for retool if we could build 2-2 hockey team. That means a team that can score 2 goals every game and limit GA at 2.
Then we need to add a superstar Forward to add more goals or D and decrease GA.

I think we have G that help for GA. Our D is OK and younger but they are very easy play against. Nobody afraid to play against them. So we need 1 or two 2nd&3rd pairing D who can play shut down physical game.

Our F is not consistent. We need good 1st and good 2nd line that can score at least 2 goals every game. It would be nice if we could get not too old veteran star who can help Tkachuk and young guys to develop and unite all players under Sutter.

And don't forget useful 3rd and 4th line can chip a goal and shut down other team. We have most parts. But we need a little bit more speed and physical force.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Matata

Rebuild is bottom feeder for a few years while you collect very high draft picks.

Flames have retooled, they've pivoted, but they've always spent to the cap, only got a 4th and 2x 6th overall and there was only a few seasons where they weren't trying to bolster the team at the trade deadline. They thought Johnny, Mony and Bennett were all going to be elite players and pulled out of a rebuild to see if combining them with a still elite Gio would be enough to put them over the top. It wasn't and every version of that team is going to be worse than the previous one, it's a slow descent from here and I'd rather see it all burnt down instead.

This is what I think about when people say that rebuilds don't guarantee success. True, but the Flames have never really committed to a rebuild and have been one of the least successful franchises in North American pro-sports. It's time to try something else, and most championship teams have won so because they rebuilt at some point.

Dumb analogy time... I think of a rebuild as building a sandwich and a championship team is a cheeseburger. Sure, not all sandwiches are cheeseburgers, some might be BLTs or egg salad. But all cheeseburgers are sandwiches. If you commit to never eating a sandwich, you will never eat a cheeseburger then either.

The Flames were close to having a cheeseburger at one point, but retooled it into something else. The lettuce got old and then they tried to make up for it by adding pickles, the bun was traded out for bread, and the beef was traded for donkey meat.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Now I want a cheeseburger

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Now I want a cheeseburger

Nah, donkey meat is the next big thing. You won’t be able to tell the difference, I promise.

Seriously though, here are the basic options:

1. Retool through trades. If you do this, you need to win more trades than you lose, otherwise you just tread water or deplete your assets over time.

2. Retool through free agency. It’s a great way to add assets, but you rarely get great value, especially as the contracts age. This is best reserved for teams that are close to being a contender.

3. Rebuild through the draft. It’s not really a good strategy to do this without lop 3 draft picks. It can be done in theory without top picks, but that is more or less relying on luck. This is the best way to get good players and value down the line, but requires an investment in time.

4. Do nothing and hope things just come together.

None of these are guaranteed and come with risk. Personally, I see the Flames as a team that missed the window and have depleted assets at this point. In order to turn it around without rebuilding would require legendary asset management and luck at this point. The only logical option is to rebuild through the draft in my opinion. Not saying they will do this, because they probably won’t.

Of course, you can do combinations of those options. For example, trade for high picks and use the cap space to sign free agents. It not easy to get the best free agents if you are not competitive though.

[Badgers Nose]

I loved the last rebuild. It rekindled my love of hockey.

I’m more likely to pay to watch a rebuild than this junk we’ve had for two years.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

I loved the last rebuild. It rekindled my love of hockey.

I’m more likely to pay to watch a rebuild than this junk we’ve had for two years.

Yeah I actually enjoyed the rebuild far more than watching the last few years of trying and failing to make the playoffs with Iginla. The 2014/15 season was by far the most exciting Flames season since 2004.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yep The article I linked did say between 6 and 7.4 million by 2043 so Alberta could be closer to 6 million but that will vary with the ebbs and flows. The poster that said Alberta's population would be falling to Saskatchewan was laughably incorrect.

Personally, I highly doubt the human race will be around still in 2043 so it won't matter.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Personally, I highly doubt the human race will be around still in 2043 so it won't matter.

Well okay then. Flames best be picking up their game if they want to win another cup with the window closing on the human race.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Well okay then. Flames best be picking up their game if they want to win another cup with the window closing on the human race.

Think of the backloading of contracts ! Load them past the end of humanity ! No cap recapture

Trade all your draft picks too!

BT should be fired for not already doing this

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah I actually enjoyed the rebuild far more than watching the last few years of trying and failing to make the playoffs with Iginla. The 2014/15 season was by far the most exciting Flames season since 2004.

I agree - and then even coming out of that 2014/2015 season, there was so much excitement around the team. Our GM was making bold moves to acquire more young pieces (Hamilton acquisition), and there was so much forward momentum that it was hard not to be excited. Things got severely derailed as we went along though. Back-to-back-to-back bad coaching hires, some pretty poor free agent work and small "meh" trades along the way and the excitement is just...gone.

I'm a season ticket holder, and would absolutely be on board with a tear it down rebuild. It's easy to sell me hope, and much harder to sell me on "we're going for it!" when we've won 1 playoff series since 2005/2006 and have spent two years in a row trending down rather than up.

[btimbit]

Flames are in an interesting spot for sure. This team has to be good by the time the new arena opens, they can't justify jacking up the price during a rebuild.

That alone makes me think they won't commit to one any time soon

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Flames are in an interesting spot for sure. This team has to be good by the time the new arena opens, they can't justify jacking up the price during a rebuild.

That alone makes me think they won't commit to one any time soon

I see it both ways. Sure, if they rebuild - and are still rebuilding and not looking very good any time soon - then that's going to be terrible for the arena opening.


However, if they don't rebuild and this team is still a fairly mediocre playoff bubble team at best, will that justify the increased pricing?


IMO, a sports team needs to be doing either one of two things:


1) Winning
2) Providing legitimate hope to winning 'soon'.


Waiting until the arena is almost finished before being forced into a rebuild at that time due to, well, 2010-13 all over again would be the single worst situation.



Being a rebuild like Edmonton (without the generational player) would be the 2nd worst. I will even give you 'tied for worst'.



Having a promising young team like they were in 2015 would sell tickets.


Being a consistent playoff team/contender/even just make it past the first round once - that will sell tickets too.


Really depends on how you look at it. There is time still to enter into a rebuild and have enough 'excitement' to justify a rebuild. I don't think you can do it in 2 years, so the Flames better make sure they handle this retool well.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Flames are in an interesting spot for sure. This team has to be good by the time the new arena opens, they can't justify jacking up the price during a rebuild.

That alone makes me think they won't commit to one any time soon

It kind if depends.

If the Flames rebuild includes one of Wright, Bedard, or to a lesser degree, Lambert, Savoie, or Mishkov, that could be a boon to generating revenue in a new arena. Even if the team is still building up at that point, those players would create a lot of hype. I don’t think it hurt Edmonton or Pittsburgh much when they had phenoms to sell their new arenas despite not having immediate success. People will pay to see those players.

[Hackey]

Building through free agency is not an option for the Flames. The only way the Flames are going to be able to attract big name free agents is if they are an elite team. Even then it will likely be difficult. Otherwise, were the ones overpaying for guys like Brouwer and Neal.

And posters who try to push this narrative that the fans won't support a rebuild are way off base IMO. What is more exciting than quality young players coming up through the organization and watching their progression? How is what we witnessed last year or the year before better? You'd think were tearing down a top 10 team or something. This is a bottom 1/3 of the league team. We had 4 more points than the Senators. The contract situations are only going to make is increasingly difficult to try and win with this group.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Yeah I actually enjoyed the rebuild far more than watching the last few years of trying and failing to make the playoffs with Iginla. The 2014/15 season was by far the most exciting Flames season since 2004.

The big difference I see is the Iginla/Kipper Flames were being lead by players all in their 30’s. The Flames had really no sub 25 talent on the roster in 2013 and the team was far overdue for a rebuild. I think we al enjoyed the first couple of Hartley years because it was the first time in a decade the team had young players to be excited about.

This current group is still to young to tear down and to do it after the pandemic is premature. It is highly likely in hindsight now may look like the best time to blow it up but in the hear and now I think they need to retool it and try and win while the hall of fame coach still wants to work.