20/21 Norris finalists. Fox, Makar, Hedman. UPD: Fox wins

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Oh, I think there’s a lot of natural ability involved in good D, and even more intelligence. And frankly I’d rather recognize hard work, determination and intelligence versus natural ability. I respect Tanev’s game more than McDavid’s.

I’m happy to just disagree and leave it there.

Who are these great players deserving of a major NHL award? Chris Tanev? How many of these are you giving out?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Who are these great players deserving of a major NHL award? Chris Tanev? How many of these are you giving out?

Tanev would be a finalist and how many awards? 6 or so. I’d chuck the GM, the Byng, the Jennings, the Foundation, the Clancy, the Messier.

[Strange Brew]

So really this is just a argument for wanting Chris Tanev to be recognized for being a good player. OK done. No need to add a major award.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

So really this is just a argument for wanting Chris Tanev to be recognized for being a good player. OK done. No need to add a major award.

I don’t know that he’d win (probably Slavin would). And I’ve wanted it for years well before Tanev was even in the league. But thanks for the snark.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

So really this is just a argument for wanting Chris Tanev to be recognized for being a good player. OK done. No need to add a major award.

Such a good player that his team missed the playoffs by a mile.

Good thing with the Flames is there's always next year!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Such a good player that his team missed the playoffs by a mile.

Good thing with the Flames is there's always next year!

I take it you wouldn’t have voted for Iggy in 2002. You were a Theodore guy.

ETA: How did Fox’s team do this year?

[djsFlames]

Tanev is dreamy.

In a hockey way.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

It's absolutely ridiculous that the Flames biggest need on the blue line is a top pairing guy who can drive the offence from the back end, and despite drafting one of those in the 3rd round 5 years ago, we had to trade him as an add on and couldn't keep him because all he had to do was wait one more year and sign wherever the #### he wanted to.

The Flames could have....no SHOULD have had a Norris quality defenseman on their roster this past season who is STILL ON HIS ELC.

It's an absolute travesty that great drafting like that does nothing to help your team. Why eve have a ####ing draft if more and more high quality future NHLers are going the college route and can basically just choose their own destination if they want to, and no sense of loyalty to a team that drafts them?

This kind of #### makes me not want to follow sports anymore. My favorite team my whole life has been about as mediocre as you can get for the last 30 years, buteven when they do something right they don't get any benefit out of it.

Seriously. Imagine the Flames with a Norris quality Dman on their roster this past year eating up barely more than a league minimum contract. Does that move the needle when it was our biggest weakness on the back end? Yeah, it probably does.

It ain't right.

The Flames knew the risks in drafting college players at the time, and the entire league knows the risks. When players decide to do what Fox did it is more of an indictment on the state of the team than it is anything else.

Right or wrong, if you're Fox, why the hell would you not use the system (which is what it is and to be quite honest is rarely an issue compared to how many players are actually drafted)? There's no way I'm going to Calgary with a shoddy track record of development on the back end, an extremely underwhelming management group and team results that are abysmal for the last 15 years.

I have no doubt Fox is not even close to the Norris defenceman he is if he had come here. Our lovable GM would have banished him in the minors for a year of seasoning, then third pairing and possibly only now expanded his role in the upcoming season. Even beyond Treliving, the Flames track record of developing top 4 defenceman in the last 15 years starts with TJ Brodie and ends with Rasmus Andersson.....in 15 drafts we are talking 2 players.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

The Flames knew the risks in drafting college players at the time, and the entire league knows the risks. When players decide to do what Fox did it is more of an indictment on the state of the team than it is anything else.

Right or wrong, if you're Fox, why the hell would you not use the system (which is what it is and to be quite honest is rarely an issue compared to how many players are actually drafted)? There's no way I'm going to Calgary with a shoddy track record of development on the back end, an extremely underwhelming management group and team results that are abysmal for the last 15 years.

I have no doubt Fox is not even close to the Norris defenceman he is if he had come here. Our lovable GM would have banished him in the minors for a year of seasoning, then third pairing and possibly only now expanded his role in the upcoming season. Even beyond Treliving, the Flames track record of developing top 4 defenceman in the last 15 years starts with TJ Brodie and ends with Rasmus Andersson.....in 15 drafts we are talking 2 players.

The Flames have only drafted D in the top 2 rounds 4 times in that period (not counting 2020). And one of those guys refused to sign here. The other 3 have played significant games, Kylington being the only one who is a question mark to me as far as being a regular NHLer. They also obviously drafted and developed Brodie and arguably developed Kulak as well, out of lower rounds. And obviously at the very least they ID’d Fox.

[metroneck]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

The Flames knew the risks in drafting college players at the time, and the entire league knows the risks. When players decide to do what Fox did it is more of an indictment on the state of the team than it is anything else.

Right or wrong, if you're Fox, why the hell would you not use the system (which is what it is and to be quite honest is rarely an issue compared to how many players are actually drafted)? There's no way I'm going to Calgary with a shoddy track record of development on the back end, an extremely underwhelming management group and team results that are abysmal for the last 15 years.

I have no doubt Fox is not even close to the Norris defenceman he is if he had come here. Our lovable GM would have banished him in the minors for a year of seasoning, then third pairing and possibly only now expanded his role in the upcoming season. Even beyond Treliving, the Flames track record of developing top 4 defenceman in the last 15 years starts with TJ Brodie and ends with Rasmus Andersson.....in 15 drafts we are talking 2 players.

How have the Rangers faired at drafting and developing D-Men in the same timeframe?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by metroneck

How have the Rangers faired at drafting and developing D-Men in the same timeframe?

Yeah, it's hard to claim that NYR "developed" a Dman who scored 42 points as a rookie and never went through NYR's farm system.

Essentially Fox is a defensive version of Gaudreau. Came out of college and hit the ground running.

I'd say the Rangers developed Lindgren, though they didn't draft him. They traded for the rest of their D except for Miller.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

The Flames knew the risks in drafting college players at the time, and the entire league knows the risks. When players decide to do what Fox did it is more of an indictment on the state of the team than it is anything else.

Right or wrong, if you're Fox, why the hell would you not use the system (which is what it is and to be quite honest is rarely an issue compared to how many players are actually drafted)? There's no way I'm going to Calgary with a shoddy track record of development on the back end, an extremely underwhelming management group and team results that are abysmal for the last 15 years.

I have no doubt Fox is not even close to the Norris defenceman he is if he had come here. Our lovable GM would have banished him in the minors for a year of seasoning, then third pairing and possibly only now expanded his role in the upcoming season. Even beyond Treliving, the Flames track record of developing top 4 defenceman in the last 15 years starts with TJ Brodie and ends with Rasmus Andersson.....in 15 drafts we are talking 2 players.

You missed the point entirely.

The draft should be an even playing field. That little piece of #### should have had to sign a contract with the Flames and work his way to free agency the proper way.

He should not had the choice to be a little bitch and just decide not to sign with the team that drafted him and slither his way to New York because it's what he fancied.

What in the #### is the point of having a draft if players can just ####ing stay in school, get their ivy league degree and then sign wherever the #### they want to. Don't answer that, it's rhetorical.

[InternationalVillager]

Players should be forced to sign with the team that drafted them. Pretty simple fix. This is all on the NHL. Each team that drafts a player should have them for a minimum atleast the 3 year ELC and then that player should enter the RFA process. MLB has done this real well I believe.

[Cycling76er]

Pardon my naivety but, ELI5; what is the "loophole" that was gamed or abused or used in bad faith etc.?

Genuine question.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Cycling76er

Pardon my naivety but, ELI5; what is the "loophole" that was gamed or abused or used in bad faith etc.?

Genuine question.

"Loophole" AKA The current CBA with respect to college players

[kyuss275]

With ncaa now allowing players to sign endorsement deals , wonder if you will see more of the top drafted players going to ncaa , use the loophole more?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by kyuss275

With ncaa now allowing players to sign endorsement deals , wonder if you will see more of the top drafted players going to ncaa , use the loophole more?

I doubt it. I don’t think hockey players will be getting endorsement deals. The schools are too small, the leagues are too tiny and the players are pretty low profile.

This is mostly about video games (there ain’t going to be a college hockey video game). It’s about basketball and football.

[powderjunkie]

For the awards, I don't see a defensive D-man award working at all. The better answer for me is a 'Bobby Orr Best Offensive D-Man' award, and let the Norris revert to best overall defenseman.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

For the awards, I don't see a defensive D-man award working at all. The better answer for me is a 'Bobby Orr Best Offensive D-Man' award, and let the Norris revert to best overall defenseman.

People keep saying this, and i can only assume they never saw him play. He was terrific defensively, and is without a doubt the "best overall defenseman" that ever played.

If you want an offensive defenseman award, call it the Paul Coffey or something.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

You missed the point entirely.

The draft should be an even playing field. That little piece of #### should have had to sign a contract with the Flames and work his way to free agency the proper way.

He should not had the choice to be a little bitch and just decide not to sign with the team that drafted him and slither his way to New York because it's what he fancied.

What in the #### is the point of having a draft if players can just ####ing stay in school, get their ivy league degree and then sign wherever the #### they want to. Don't answer that, it's rhetorical.

For the sake of clarity it should be noted, no drafted player has his rights held in perpetuity by the drafting team.

The CHL, NCAA, SEL, etc... the only league that is the case is the KHL which does not have a transfer agreement with the NHL.

There's a stale date for all of them.

In the case of players drafted in the first round who fail to sign despite a boni fide offer by the drafting club, that club receives a compensatory draft pick, in the second round, at a number matching the pick in the first round.