Election!

[Lurch]

I'm going to make an attempt to actually talk policy on this thread - sorry in advance for missing the spirit of these threads!! Anyway, I read this morning that Harper wants to cut the GST to 5% within five years as opposed to cutting personal income tax as per the Liberals. Typically, economists, especially those more on the right, would say this is bad policy since a consumption tax is more economically efficient than an income tax. Since Harper no doubt knows this, it seems to me he is pushing the GST cut just to have a different policy than the Liberals - any thoughts?

[transplant99]

Since Harper no doubt knows this, it seems to me he is pushing the GST cut just to have a different policy than the Liberals - any thoughts?

I suppose he is doing it just to make it different from the Liberals, but lets not forget all the promises from the "red book" 8 years ago.

"We will ELIMINATE the GST completely".

How's that policy going Paul?

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by Lurch

I'm going to make an attempt to actually talk policy on this thread - sorry in advance for missing the spirit of these threads!! Anyway, I read this morning that Harper wants to cut the GST to 5% within five years as opposed to cutting personal income tax as per the Liberals. Typically, economists, especially those more on the right, would say this is bad policy since a consumption tax is more economically efficient than an income tax. Since Harper no doubt knows this, it seems to me he is pushing the GST cut just to have a different policy than the Liberals - any thoughts?

"Economically efficient" is the right term. There are probably a lot of other taxes he could cut to the same effect.

But voters have always hated the GST . . . .

The good thing about the GST is that no politician in his right mind would ever raise it . . . . unlike the myriad of other taxes that seem to rise all the time.

Cowperson

[AaronSJ]

Originally Posted by transplant99

but lets not forget all the promises from the "red book" 8 years ago. "We will ELIMINATE the GST completely". How's that policy going Paul?

It was actually 12 years ago, and of course they've won 3 elections since... Really, it was a turning point in Canadian politics -- a crucial election promise went unfulfilled, and the party still received three more mandates.

It makes me wonder whether the average Canadian actually cares about Harper's promise today (or about any election promise in general)?

[ernie]

Also of note is that Harper was in halifax yesterdya and got a vote of confidence from the provincial conservative Hamm government. With Hamm and other high ranking provincial tories saying harper is a friend to the maritimes and well versed in the problem the area faces and how to solve those problems. I don't believe he received the endorsement last time out from the Hamm government...atleast not as strongly as tthey just did.

As well people around here still very much remember martin promising to give the off shore money to Nova Scotia (after the conservatives gained significant ground in the polls for the same promise) and then tried his best to back-peddle out of it. In the end the deal the province got was not what was promised. That is still very fresh in peoples mind especially with the amount of good news coming out of alberta the past 12-18 months.

Cutting the GST is going to appeal to people. They hate that tax and though the bottom line for people may not change compared to income tax cuts but it sounds a lot better as it's an annoyance people are reminded of every single day not just once every second week.

[Lurch]

Originally Posted by transplant99

I suppose he is doing it just to make it different from the Liberals, but lets not forget all the promises from the "red book" 8 years ago.

"We will ELIMINATE the GST completely".

How's that policy going Paul?

There we go, back in the spirit of the day! You can always count on T99 . My point is that the GST should be the last tax to go - GST was one of the best things Mulroney did for public policy. This seems like a really poor policy to pursue beyond pure political expendiency. Maybe Harper is learning to play the game, for better of worse?

[MarchHare]

It's interesting that Hamm would be endorsing Harper now, considering that only three years ago the Nova Scotia government unanimously passed a resolution condemning him.

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/05/29...r_atlntc020529

(after the conservatives gained significant ground in the polls for the same promise)

Was that during the campaign or after? The actual results of the 2004 election saw the CPC lose one seat in NS (two if you count Scott Brison defecting to the Liberals) and popular support for the party was down over 10% compared to the combined PC+Alliance total in the previous election.

[Resolute 14]

Given the Atlantic Accord was a Conservative promise in the last election that Martin stole, then reneaged on, then finally agreed to only after the pressure of Newfoundland's premier, I dont find it all that surprising that the other major beneficiary of that agreement - Nova Scotia - would start to lean towards the party that has proposed changes that helps his province, as opposed to the party that reacts to other people's promises.

[Lurch]

Originally Posted by Snakeeye

Given the Atlantic Accord was a Conservative promise in the last election that Martin stole, then reneaged on, then finally agreed to only after the pressure of Newfoundland's premier, I dont find it all that surprising that the other major beneficiary of that agreement - Nova Scotia - would start to lean towards the party that has proposed changes that helps his province, as opposed to the party that reacts to other people's promises.

What's with the obsession to take credit for an idea? It's pretty interesting in this case particularly in that the Atlantic Accord is an inherently leftist move that transfers wealth to the Atlantic over and above what would normally occur under the equalization payment plan. Why would the Conservatives be so proud of such a socialist achievement? What is it they stand for again?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

So let's get this straight, Rouge. Your two worst case examples of CPC "extremism" are about a book, and an opinion on giving unanimous consent on a motion..... Pretty weak examples of extremism compared to:

A senior Iranian cleric has called for all university professors to undergo Islamic training by the clergy.

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/new...p?storyid=4668

"Our enemies have to know that the Iranian people will develop their nuclear technology to the limit" - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

http://framehosting.dowjonesnews.com/sample/samplestory.asp?StoryID=2005113013000109&Take=1

And countless others from regimes around the world. Now which scare you more? On what basis is any party in Canada considered extreme? From my perspective, they all are just playing around in a wading pool compared to the extremists that swim in oceans outside our borders.

I don't know that they are the worst cases for extremism inside the party, they were just the first two that popped up.

The argument "look how crazy they are in Iran, these guys aren't nearly as bad" doesn't cut it for me.

As for the local crazies... banning a book because the characters say "god damnit" a few times is not exactly a mainstream notion. The other guy, Anders, is just obsessed with communism. I don't know whether that's extremism or not, but it's sure a weird thing for an MP from Calgary West to be overly concerned with.

Until they get rid of the stink from the old Reform party, they are going to have the extremism thing stuck on them. Like it or not, that is how a lot of people see them. How do I know this? Because it comes up every time and the always lose. I know I know, a lot of people think they lose because people in Ontario are stupid. I just haven't bought that explanation yet.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Lurch

What's with the obsession to take credit for an idea? It's pretty interesting in this case particularly in that the Atlantic Accord is an inherently leftist move that transfers wealth to the Atlantic over and above what would normally occur under the equalization payment plan. Why would the Conservatives be so proud of such a socialist achievement? What is it they stand for again?

Means to an end.

Give Newfoundland and Nova Scotia the ability to pull themselves out of the hole Ottawa put them in, and you can help them get off of the welfare dependency that has been created. That is a right wing philosophy, even if it takes some left-wing mechanics to make it work.

The goal is to give the provinces control over their resources, while giving them the means to support themselves, rather than have Alberta and Ontario pay to keep them afloat.

Alberta's fortunes began climbing when Premier Brownlee finally won Alberta (and Saskatchewan) the rights to our resources that Ottawa initially denied us (illegally) when the two territories became provinces. While the status of off-shore resources is different than terrestrial resources, the underlying idea is the same.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

It's interesting that Hamm would be endorsing Harper now, considering that only three years ago the Nova Scotia government unanimously passed a resolution condemning him.

It's amazing that if you let a guy explain what he means how much less evil he sounds. As well a liberal candidate used the same "culture of defeat" type comment around that same time...he just phrased it a bit better and of course he wasn't a westerner. It was and is blown completely out of proportion and very few actually know what Harper meant and the policies he wanted to see to help the region which make a lot of sense. Speaking from Halifax this city is dead because of the military cutbacks IMO. It's really that simple. The military brought a bunch of regular money to the city and it's gone. That is one of the quickest ways to turn this part of Nova Scotia around...more funding = more soldiers = more money for local businesses = better economic picture.

And to be perfectly honest having now lived here for a time...the attitude is indeed different. People here do have a much greater tendency to look to the government to do something for them. There is a dependency that has developed (helped along by military cuts to be sure and other things). If I offend any maritimers I'm sorry but that is very much the impression i get. Maybe it's only fair after all the income tax rate is high and the 15 % HST is a joke...the government darn well better do something for me!

Was that during the campaign or after? The actual results of the 2004 election saw the CPC lose one seat in NS (two if you count Scott Brison defecting to the Liberals) and popular support for the party was down over 10% compared to the combined PC+Alliance total in the previous election.

During the campaign. In the polls around here the Tories gained considerable ground and even had the liberals passed in three or four consecutive polls from what I remember. the main reason was the off shore revenues. Martin then made a copy cat promise and people went back to the "devil we know" philosophy instead of the westerner and the polls reversed. When amrtin back-peddled and the liberals MPs did absolutely nothing about it it ****ed a lot of people off.

[MarchHare]

Speaking from Halifax this city is dead

On the contrary, Halifax has quite a vibrant economy and is one of the fastest-growing cities in Canada. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the rest of the Atlantic Provinces, but Halifax is not dead in the least. In fact, if I were to ever move back to the Maritimes, Halifax would be the only city I'd consider.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by MarchHare

On the contrary, Halifax has quite a vibrant economy and is one of the fastest-growing cities in Canada. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said for the rest of the Atlantic Provinces, but Halifax is not dead in the least. In fact, if I were to ever move back to the Maritimes, Halifax would be the only city I'd consider.

It's picking up yes but it still isn't where it could be or really should be. It's mainly growing because the population for the maritimes is consolidating into the cities and mainly Halifax. As well they had very poor growth rates in Nova Scotia until this past year...not surprisingly the growth rate increased with the off shore deal and resulting increase in economic investment into liquified natural gas in Cape Breton among other things (call centres). Unemployment is still around 9% for the province. Don't get me wrong it's a nice city and it is growing and getting better, but in many respects it has been held back due to government...on all levels but especially federal and local...local governments can't make decisions if their life depended on it. I wouldn't call it vibrant I really wouldn't. Growing yes but not vibrant excet compared to other maritime cities.

[duncan]

Originally Posted by Shawnski

Duncan, welcome to politics.

Truth be known, no party in Canada is "extreme" in any way, shape or form. I laugh at anyone that categorizes them that way. There is no extreme... there isn't even a "strong" version of either wing.

Canada is centralist in nature. No singular government will swing the country way off center. That again is something I laugh at all the time.

Many "new" votes think a vote for CPC is like jumping into hell in damnation... sorry, it takes a few governments in a row to effectively change the direction of a country. And after a few CPC goverments you might not be so concerned about the direction taken. But now that we have had a few Liberal governments, the direction is clear.... privilege.... corruption.... waste....

Welcome to getting older and wiser all.....

That's kind of what I was saying Shawnski, neither party is that far left or right, but they work hard to make each other look it, and the Liberals feed into it. An NDP candidate comments on universal, free healthcare, and a Tory questions the expense, and freedom to get private healthcare, and the Liberal slams the Tory for wanting to kill medicare, and throws in a barb against the NDP, looking to get support from both sides moderates. Neither side is really far apart, they both have some radicals, but the Liberals make it look worse. It is not like the Conservatives are the Christian Heritage Party, or the NDP are the Canadian Communist Party.

As far as Privilege, Corruption, and Waste.... any government that is voted in will give back that in boatloads. Mulroney was pretty fast to line the pockets of his friends in Baie-Comeau as well. Mulroney also had corruption allegations levelled against him and his friends (Airbus?) We went through 8 nasty years in Ontario, where a Conservative government: made several friends very wealthy, had a controversy over tax breaks, granted themselves a healthy 36% raise, millions of dollars on private golf courses and a toll highway they don't get money from anymore, and attempted to cover up involvement in the Ipperwash scandal. Power begets greed, greed begets corruption, its a nasty circle.

[Cowperson]

As a sidebar, even if you're a Tory you have to appreciate some witty writing from Don Martin of the National Post today that sent me laughing out loud in a lonely office as he goes off on a Stephen Harper/Stockwell Day comparison:

It's starting to look a lot like Stockwell Day's gaffe-a-day 2000 election tour. New leader, but same-sex stumbles, flawed fly-by-night policy and severely warped messages, which have combined to send the Liberal war room into a delirious orgy of Conservative derision to deadly, demoralizing effect.

Wednesday dawned with Conservative Leader Stephen Harper lining up eight kamikaze candidates from the Quebec capital region as backdrop material, apparently in lieu of potted plants.

Perhaps understanding their fate as MP wannabes wearing rising-sun bandanas while screaming Tory, Tory, Tory during their divebomb into electoral oblivion, Harper neglected to publicly introduce them, the only warm Conservative bodies in his party's political Dead Zone.

You probably need to subscribe to read his full column or try bugmenot.com

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/...e-5b13c1893ec0

Cowperson

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I find it somewhat funny that people are so eager to jump all over the Conservatives before the campaign has even started, it shows your unwillingness to listen to what they're presenting.

Its like that nosy neighbour that says uh huh I told you that guy was shady, now I don't have to listen anymore.

If your so willing to condemn harper after the first day, then in all damn fairness you need to condemn the Liberals for the Gomery issues, and the upcoming Income Trusts issues.

This is why I've lost a ton of respect for Canadian voters, your so eager to judge after the first day to support an ideology and damn the consequences. It dosen't matter about what the Liberal's do, people are two cowardly to punish them and force them to reform thier own party, and the only way that thats going to happen is if we make sure we don't reward thier behavior with another term in office, because if we do, all we're saying is its ok to be corrupt, its ok to steal money from the average Canadian that your supposed to be serving, as long as you say the right things, and maybe do the right thing once every 10 years.

Ehem....do you remember saying this

I'm just walking away from all election debate, feelings get hurt, people get called all kinds of foul names and nobody's minds change, and half the people don't vote anyways.

Keep sucking you back in!

[CaptainCrunch]

When you spend the last four days missing work with the most horrendous flu ever, and your so crabby and worn out that your girlfriend is spending time out of town to avoid you, you'd be debating politics badly too.

[JohnnyFlame]

I'm one of those half who never vote and the old people died so you could vote blarney dosen't do it for me either. It's exceptionally simple for me. If a person/party would follow through on their promises and have an actual stand on issues I would vote for them. But they do little but feed the bozo voter rubbish he wants to hear and then don't do it anyway and the bozo votes for them again next time. Sorry but liars and stupid bozo's aren't much of a combo. The private sector drives the economy--the government does little more than **** away money.

I would think a benevolent dictatorship would be a far better way to go myself.

[FireFly]

How slick is Harper? Cutting the GST to 5% in 5 years. Down to 6% immediately. NICE!