I voted "Yes", because I think it's worth seeing some consistency through this next stage. He gets one more shot at a head coach, and he gets a two year window to rebuild this team.
Treliving has two years left to set the foundation for this team to be a top team. If he doesn't lay that foundation, fire him during the off-season before his final year - because you can't go into a season with a GM on the final year of his deal.
I don't expect this team to win any playoff series between now and then, so it's all about building that foundation. If he starts taking short cuts again? I'll cancel my season tickets.
The damage a bad and/or desperate GM can do in on offseason can take years to undo.
Missing on the opportunity to move Gaudreau will have significantly worse impact on the future fortunes of the roster for the next 5-15 years than missing on the Iginla and Bouwmeester trades did.
Getting it wrong could add literal years to a rebuild.
I want to see some major changes to the roster and coaching staff this offseason. Then next year, if they win at least one round, show up and put in an honest effort in every game, I'll be okay with that for now. If I see another first round exit, or a team that folds when it matters again, I'm done. This offseason is his last chance in my eyes.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
Before you call me a pessimist or a downer, the Flames made me this way. Blame them.
The 2017 draft was a big miss step in the "rebuild" IMO.
If they were going to trade high end picks at that draft, it should have been for Brayden Schenn, not Travis Hamonic. He also retained Michael Stone that off season as well.
Keep in mind, they drafted Fox in 2016. He's looking at the NHL depth chart and sees Hamilton, Hamonic and Stone all signed with term on the right side of the D. Plus Brodie who despite being a lefty always played his best on the right side with Gio. Maybe he would have never signed anyways, but that certainly didn't help.
The next off season was also a missed opportunity, as after making the big Hamilton trade, instead of going hard after a difference maker like ROR who was known to be available, they missed out yet again on a high end top 6 C and as a result filled out their top 6 by signing James Neal instead.
Of course, everyone knows that the team that got both those players went on to win the Cup after a slow start, a changing of the head coach, and also having Binnington step up and replace an always inconsistent Allen.
2019 off season saw them miss out on Kadri and also have to deal Neal for Lucic.
It'sbeen three disastrous off seasons in a row, and I am officially frightened about what might happen during this off season.
Last edited by Roof-Daddy; 08-21-2020 at 12:24 PM.
The 2017 draft was a big miss step in the "rebuild" IMO.
If they were going to trade high end picks at that draft, it should have been for Brayden Schenn, not Travis Hamonic. He also retained Michael Stone that off season as well.
Keep in mind, they drafted Fox in 2016. He's looking at the NHL depth chart and sees Hamilton, Hamonic and Stone all signed with term on the right side of the D. Plus Brodie who despite being a lefty always played his best on the right side with Gio. Maybe he would have never signed anyways, but that certainly didn't help.
The next off season was also a missed opportunity, as after making the big Hamilton trade, instead of going hard after a difference maker like ROR who was known to be available, they missed out yet again on a high end top 6 C and as a result filled out their top 6 by signing James Neal instead.
Of course, everyone knows that the team that got both those players went on to win the Cup after a slow start, a changing of the head coach, and also having Binnington step up and replace an always inconsistent Allen.
Everything St. Louis did shows us where Treliving failed.
- he has fallen in love with centre depth that is near the bottom of the league
- he has never found a goalie worth a damn
- he has never found a coach worth a damn
Like holy hell. Centre depth, goaltending and coaching - the three foundations for all good teams. Treliving screwed them all up.
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I'm torn. I really like Treliving, some of his moves have been great. But the proof is in the pudding and the results have not been there. Colour me not impressed overall I suppose, but I'm not against letting him go to the end of his contract at least before deciding.
The coaching is one thing. GG was a big whiff but I feel he should get a pass for Peters, the full year he had here, the team did well.He wasn't fired for something he did on-ice or in Calgary so while I absolutely agree with the firing, I don't think you pin that one on Treliving.
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I'm torn. I really like Treliving, some of his moves have been great. But the results do speak for themselves.
The coaching is one thing. GG was a big whiff but I feel he should get a pass for Peters, the full year he had here, the team did well.He wasn't fired for something he did on-ice or in Calgary so while I absolutely agree with the firing, I don't think you pin that one on Treliving.
This is where I'm at too. Mixed bag of results and mixed feelings.
Everything St. Louis did shows us where Treliving failed.
- he has fallen in love with centre depth that is near the bottom of the league
- he has never found a goalie worth a damn
- he has never found a coach worth a damn
Like holy hell. Centre depth, goaltending and coaching - the three foundations for all good teams. Treliving screwed them all up.
I wouldn't say the center depth is near the bottom of the league. They're just missing a true #1 center, the kind that elevates everyone else on the team. And I unfortunately don't know how they find that player without tearing the team down and drafting real early a few times.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
Before you call me a pessimist or a downer, the Flames made me this way. Blame them.
Brad Treliving is definitively a mediocre/bad general manager. I'm sure I missed a few minor things and there may be some errors.
Look at 2019 and 2020. What an absolutely waste of time from a team building perspective.
Honestly I remove 2014 from the equation. He had just started in the job and Brian Burke's finger prints were all over every move we made that offseason.
So removing the minor moves let's take a look at his years, year by year.
Spoiler!
2015 Looks like a pretty good year to me and really where most of his good moves happened.
Good:
-2015 2nd round pick, 2015 3rd round pick acquired for Curtis Glencross
-2015 2nd round pick acquired for Sven Baertschi
-Garnet Hathaway signed (2 years, 690K AAV)
-Mikael Backlund (3 years, 3.575M AAV)
-Dougie Hamilton (6 years, 5.75M AAV)
-Michael Frolik (5 years, 4.3M AAV)
-Micheal Ferland (2 years, 825K AAV)
-Mark Giordano (6 years, 6.75M AAV)
- Drafted Andersson, Kylington, Mangiapane
Push:
-Dougie Hamilton acquired for 2015 1st round pick, 2015 2nd round pick, 2015 2nd round pick (Not bad, but that Matt Barzal guy would look pretty sweet in red)
2016 Pretty good overall with only really Brouwer being the real bad move. Elliott was fine until the playoffs.
Bad:
-Travis Hamonic, conditional 2019 4th round pick acquired for 2018 1st round pick, 2018 2nd round pick, 2019 2nd round pick
-Michael Stone acquired for 2018 5th round pick, 2017 3rd round pick
-Curtis Lazar, Mike Kostka acquired for 2017 2nd round pick, Jyrki Jokipakka
-Lance Bouma (buyout)
Michael Stone (3 years, 3.5M AAV)
Push:
-Mike Smith acquired for Brandon Hickey, Chad Johnson, 2018 3rd round pick
-Jaromir Jagr (1 year, 1M AAV)
2018Lots of good here but the bad moves were really bad and buying out Brouwer to be able to go after James Neal was crippling even though lots of people were onboard at the time.
Good:
-Elias Lindholm (6 years, 4.85M AAV)
-Noah Hanifin (6 years, 4.95M AAV)
-Derek Ryan (3 years, 3.125M AAV)
-David Rittich (1 year, 800K AAV)
-Garnet Hathaway (1 year, 850K AAV)
-Drafted Pettersen, Zavgorodniy
Bad:
-James Neal (5 years, 5.75M AAV)
-Troy Brouwer (buyout)
-Rinat Valiev, Matt Taormina acquired for Brett Kulak
-No picks in first three rounds
Push:
-Elias Lindholm, Noah Hanifin acquired for Dougie Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, Adam Fox
-Austin Czarnik (2 years, 1.25M AAV)
TBD:
-Mikael Backlund (6 years, 5.35M AAV)
2019
Good:
-2020 4th round pick acquired for Michael Frolik
- Drafted Pelletier, Nikolaev (jury out but looks good)
Bad:
-Michael Stone (buyout)
-Oscar Fantenberg acquired for 2020 4th round pick
Push:
-Matthew Tkachuk (3 years, 7M AAV)
-Cam Talbot (1 year, 2.75M AAV)
-Sam Bennett (2 years, 2.55M AAV)
-David Rittich (2 years, 2.75M AAV)
TBD:
-Milan Lucic (750K retained), 2020 3rd round pick acquired for James Neal
So I think the biggest concern here is that his last undisputably good year from a team building perspective was 2016.
He got off to a great start in putting the pieces together for this team in 2015 and 2016. But since then I think it's fair to say he's been average/mediocre as a GM.
I think the key is his management of the amateur scouting staff and scouts has been strong as they've done well with the picks they've had, but his ability to arm them with picks has been poor.
Pro-scouting also seems to be an issue. Outside of Frolik and Ryan we haven't really been able to sign any UFAs that can contribute, and Neal, Brouwer, and Stone were outright bad.
Identifying guys like Lindholm and Hamilton was good, but they also went after Hamonic which IMO is his biggest mistake as a GM. Wasting cap on a poor piece is one thing, but to send out a 1st and two 2nds for a guy that didn't help the team and wasn't a long term piece was horrible.
So yeah overall it's still a pretty mixed bag. Some good, some bad and overall like the rest of this organization he's been mediocre. And the alarming part is the moves seem to be on a downward trend.
I agree with a poster from earlier that said that if Treliving sticks around to manage the team this offseason then it's probably this off-season that defines his tenure and standing as a Flames GM. He can make moves to push the team forward and start them down a new path, or he can panic & make bad deals that probably cripple the franchise for the next 5 years.
Last edited by SuperMatt18; 08-21-2020 at 12:38 PM.
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I wouldn't say the center depth is near the bottom of the league. They're just missing a true #1 center, the kind that elevates everyone else on the team. And I unfortunately don't know how they find that player without tearing the team down and drafting real early a few times.
Yeah, and unfortunately that's the hardest spot to fill. In fact, outside of St. Louis last year - every team in the last 25 years or so has won the Stanley Cup with a home grown #1 centre.
Incredible.
Monahan and Gaudreau need to be traded, because we need to get back into the top of the draft. Hopefully those two can deliver us a top 10 pick each in this year's draft.
How this off-season is handled and how the coaching is addressed is going to be one of the more defining moments for the Flames in recent memory. Treliving isn't a poor GM but I don't have enough confidence in him anymore to allow him to helm this ship going forward. Treliving was afforded time, assets, money and coaching changes to execute his vision but he wasn't able to. It's time for someone else to take the organization in a new direction.
I voted "Yes", because I think it's worth seeing some consistency through this next stage. He gets one more shot at a head coach, and he gets a two year window to rebuild this team.
Treliving has two years left to set the foundation for this team to be a top team. If he doesn't lay that foundation, fire him during the off-season before his final year - because you can't go into a season with a GM on the final year of his deal.
I don't expect this team to win any playoff series between now and then, so it's all about building that foundation. If he starts taking short cuts again? I'll cancel my season tickets.
That is a unrealistic expectation for good/experienced GMs let alone a mediocre rookie GM. The only path to a 2 year rebuild is trading your high picks for current roster players and building thru free agency.
The more I think about it the more I think the flames brass stick to the status quo. The goal of this franchise is not building a contender. It has ALWAYS been to build teams that can make the playoffs.
The gm is likely safe. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the flames make zero big changes to the core, outside of just signing Taylor Hall. It buys them big name excitement, while everyone realizes this moves the needle very little towards building a contender.
Again, that is not the goal. The team will definitely make the playoffs though. Any playoff wins are just gravy.
Everything St. Louis did shows us where Treliving failed.
- he has fallen in love with centre depth that is near the bottom of the league
- he has never found a goalie worth a damn
- he has never found a coach worth a damn
Like holy hell. Centre depth, goaltending and coaching - the three foundations for all good teams. Treliving screwed them all up.
Well let's be honest here - not like St.Louis figured out goaltending either.
A guy they tried to loan to any team in the AHL and who was available for anybody to trade for ended up going on a crazy run that lasted 5 months.
But since then he's fallen back to earth and has been benched in this playoffs for Jake Freaking Allen.
So if anything I think all St.Louis shows us from a goaltending perspective is that it's crazy, and unpredictable, and really you have know idea what you're going to get from a goalie season to season, month to month.
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Talking about #1 centres, we have actually drafted a centre with two of our highest ever draft selections (Monahan and Bennett). They just have not panned out that way. Another high draft pick doesn't necessarily mean it would be any different, if the flames go full tank/rebuild.
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That is a unrealistic expectation for good/experienced GMs let alone a mediocre rookie GM. The only path to a 2 year rebuild is trading your high picks for current roster players and building thru free agency.
The more I think about it the more I think the flames brass stick to the status quo. The goal of this franchise is not building a contender. It has ALWAYS been to build teams that can make the playoffs.
The gm is likely safe. I actually wouldn't be surprised if the flames make zero big changes to the core, outside of just signing Taylor Hall. It buys them big name excitement, while everyone realizes this moves the needle very little towards building a contender.
Again, that is not the goal. The team will definitely make the playoffs though. Any playoff wins are just gravy.
When I say rebuild the team, I mean rebuild the foundation. Not take them to the Cup or anything - but rather lay the foundation for future success.
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Everything St. Louis did shows us where Treliving failed.
- he has fallen in love with centre depth that is near the bottom of the league
- he has never found a goalie worth a damn
- he has never found a coach worth a damn
Like holy hell. Centre depth, goaltending and coaching - the three foundations for all good teams. Treliving screwed them all up.
2018 was the off season Vigneault got turfed by the Rangers and the Flames fired Gulutzan and hired Peters. Now who knows if he would have come to Calgary or not, but boy is that ever frustrating in hind sight.
