26 y.o. New Brunswick woman shot and killed by Police

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Many times the reason why police “cant give ground” is that doing so could allow the person armed with the weapon to then put others in danger.

Once the police are there that is rarely the case, and again, the vast vast majority of people with knives are mostly a risk to themselves,

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

having done de escalation training with the police I can say that while what they are taught is fine but the way they are taught to use it is abysmal, the police are essentially given conflicting philosophies, they are taught they have to de escalate the situation, but they have to deal with the situation straight way, without losing ground or initiative, and you cannot de escalate jack that way, the whole thrust of de escalation is to give the other person a sense of control, give them time, don't order them to do things, talk quietly, don't shout, don't threaten

Can u define what kind of training you did? How long? Was it a scenario based? Do you have to get requalified every year?

It's so much more complex - the training, actual real life experience.

You make it sound like there's a script to follow and can't understand how it could ever go in another direct or at what point does de-escalation not work. At what point would lethal force be justified?

It also sounds like you may have misinterpreted some of the training or, like is evident in this thread, molded it to fit your own narrative about police and police training.



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Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Once the police are there that is rarely the case, and again, the vast vast majority of people with knives are mostly a risk to themselves,

God dammit man. You are just wrong.

I can't tell if you're just trolling now or serious.

Either way, I'm disappointed in myself for being this frustrated by a message board.



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[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Once the police are there that is rarely the case, and again, the vast vast majority of people with knives are mostly a risk to themselves,

You’re right it’s the case when police are there because the police are containing them and not allowing them to move about freely. Then the de-escalation or use of less lethal intervention options begins. It seems as though you’re under the impression that once police arrive on scene with an emotionally disturbed person with a knife it’s a death sentence. The vast majority of the time those situations are resolved without the person dying.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

You’re right it’s the case when police are there because the police are containing them and not allowing them to move about freely. Then the de-escalation or use of less lethal intervention options begins. It seems as though you’re under the impression that once police arrive on scene with an emotionally disturbed person with a knife it’s a death sentence. The vast majority of the time those situations are resolved without the person dying.

except for the large number of times in comparison with other countries where it doesn't, Canadian Police kill vastly more people than comparable western nations and for all of the bluster and anger here no one has explained why that is.

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

except for the large number of times in comparison with other countries where it doesn't, Canadian Police kill vastly more people than comparable western nations and for all of the bluster and anger here no one has explained why that is.

Not compared to South Africa.

See what I did there? I can do the comparison game too.

Really, if you can't come up with differences between the two countries, then it's hopeless.

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[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

except for the large number of times in comparison with other countries where it doesn't, Canadian Police kill vastly more people than comparable western nations and for all of the bluster and anger here no one has explained why that is.

Bluster and anger? Hmmm thought we were having ourselves a fairly rational conversation. My bet why police kill more in Canada vs other countries is civilian access to firearms, having more isolated communities and our society being more violent than European society for whatever reason.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Not compared to South Africa.

See what I did there? I can do the comparison game too.

Really, if you can't come up with differences between the two countries, then it's hopeless.

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I'm not sure South Africa is the bar, any more than the US, that you or I would want to set for Canada, and the main difference between Canada and the UK is the UK is far more violent, has more crime, more social issues, in every respect the UK should be worse, harder to police and yet we kill massively more while not having any appreciable difference in police killed.

Why?

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Bluster and anger? Hmmm thought we were having ourselves a fairly rational conversation. My bet why police kill more in Canada vs other countries is civilian access to firearms, having more isolated communities and our society being more violent than European society for whatever reason.

yes but we are talking about police shooting people with knives here, and Canadian police kill a vastly greater number of people with knives than in the UK

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

yes but we are talking about police shooting people with knives here, and Canadian police kill a vastly greater number of people with knives than in the UK

Really? Do you have stats to show how many people with knives were killed by Canadian police?

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I'm not sure South Africa is the bar, any more than the US, that you or I would want to set for Canada, and the main difference between Canada and the UK is the UK is far more violent, has more crime, more social issues, in every respect the UK should be worse, harder to police and yet we kill massively more while not having any appreciable difference in police killed.



Why?

Because UK cops don't have guns.

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[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Because UK cops don't have guns.

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Bingo!! and yet they don't get killed, which does tend to lead to the conclusion that knives aren't that much of a danger to the police and our police don't need to be shooting people as much.

[Zulu29]

Arghhh trying to imbed a video here and it won’t work

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

Bingo!! and yet they don't get killed, which does tend to lead to the conclusion that knives aren't that much of a danger to the police and our police don't need to be shooting people as much.

And yet, they are still stabbed.

Is that acceptable to you? Couple stabbings here and there?

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[getbak]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

Arghhh trying to imbed a video here and it won’t work

What's the source? You can only embed videos from YouTube, Vimeo, and NHL.com, or webm videos if you have the direct link. For any other source, you just have to post the link.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by getbak

What's the source? You can only embed videos from YouTube, Vimeo, and NHL.com, or webm videos if you have the direct link. For any other source, you just have to post the link.

Ohhhh ok gotcha

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

And yet, they are still stabbed.

Is that acceptable to you? Couple stabbings here and there?

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Would I prefer that the policeman in NB had to go to hospital and get some stitches and the girl wasn't dead? god yes I would take that deal in a heartbeat.

The whole point of the police is they are expected to accept risk in order to keep society safe, well drunks, the depressed, the mentally ill, the frightend, the suicidal they are all part of society, as are criminals and crack heads, I expect policemen to be injured on the job instead of someone else being killed, yes that I expect.

[Acey]

Think how great society would be if people sympathized with unarmed people killed by the police as much as they defended people charging at law enforcement with a knife.

[MarchHare]

Originally Posted by Bent Wookie

Not compared to South Africa.

See what I did there? I can do the comparison game too.

Really, if you can't come up with differences between the two countries, then it's hopeless.

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Why are you comparing to South Africa? That's not a valid comparison, and you know it. I posted police kill statistics from a variety of industrialized OECD (i.e. "first world") countries that are comparable to Canada earlier in this thread. If you take away the United States, which is a huge outlier among that group, Canadian cops kill citizens an order of magnitude higher than any other first world country. Like more than twice as much as the next closest nation. This is unacceptable to me. It should be unacceptable to you, too.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Acey

Think how great society would be if people sympathized with unarmed people killed by the police as much as they defended people charging at law enforcement with a knife.

To some degree it's the same thing, you train and enforce a level of use of force in a police department, the greater carte blanche you give them to use force in wider situations the greater likelihood a policeman will screw up on the edges of those situations, if it is ok to kill someone with a knife then it is likely someone that has something that just looks like a knife ends up getting killed.