Hockey Abuse Reckoning

[Cecil Terwilliger]

It brings to mind some of sports most well known bullies. Christian Laettner was well known for being a giant dbag to his teammates. Michael Jordan was known to get in a teammates face and even smack them around a bit IIRC.

This type of behaviour runs deep in competitive sports and will be complicated to root out and eliminate.

[CaptainCrunch]

Mark Messier was known as a locker room bully, but they called it leadership in his day.

[Major Major]

Cool story bro moment...

I got a chance to do some assistant coaching with a prep team out of winsport after I was done college. When the dome was tied up, the flames and whatever visiting team was in town would come practice. We'd mostly try to stay out of their way obviously, but Babcock was the only coach who went out of his Way to talk to me and the other young coach. He took an interest in what we were up to and provided some neat tidbits.

We didn't talk long, but he actually asked us if we could let them borrow a goalie for practice as mrazek was banged up. And so came the highlight of one goalie's young career.

The wings were by far the loosest team we saw come through. They were joking around tons and Babcock seemed pretty jovial with the players. I pretty much had the opposite impression of him as what is being portrayed now. I'm not trying to flip the narrative or say the players criticizing him are wrong, but just that like everyone he's got different sides to him and is probably not the embodiment of evil scum.

[DeluxeMoustache]

^ that’s a good story.

And worth discussing

The problem is that no one is disputing the quality of coaching, or the quality of the person some of the time.

He wasn’t in a position of authority over you, and didn’t rely on getting you to produce as part of his success.

Extreme examples but Bill Cosby was funny and Ted Bundy was reportedly charming some of the time

The NHL can use coaches without the kind of baggage that is in focus right now

[Itse]

I think it's important not to conflate abusive behavior with good coaching.

Mike Babcock is a smart, meticulous and hard working coach who was an early adopter of modern puck possession hockey in the NHL (the origins of which I'd place in Sweden if a single point of origin can be named). Detroit wasn't considered a model franchise because of their coaching as such, they were a model franchise in drafting, patient player development and in sticking to a system of play season after season. The Babcock/Holland was never considered a dynasty though. They were consistently good, but in no way untouchable. Maybe the model franchise Red Wings would have more championships if Babcock didn't abuse his players? Who knows.

Darryl Sutters teams are often praised as hard working, but let's remember he's nothing special as a regular season coach. His claim to fame is playoff hockey, and I would personally argue that his biggest strength as a coach is his ability to neutralize another teams offense and in general finding ways to disrupt what ever the other teams tries to do. You can't do that just by hard work, you also have to have extremely good (and rather specific) tactical skills.

This discussion is also hardly anything new. Even back in 1994 there was plenty of talk that the Rangers won their championship in spite of Keenan, not because of him, and at best he managed to unify the team against him.

In general "these coaches were abusive and still won championships" is not much of an argument, especially if you add "most coaches behaved like that back in the day".

This is sports. No matter how the coaches behave, someone gets crowned champions every season. The existence of abusive successful coaches proves nothing, unless you can show that abusive coaches have a better track record than others. How many abusive coaches have failed miserably over the years? Likely a lot more than their have been successful ones. We just don't talk about the hasbeens no one remembers.

Plus let's remember that abuse requires power. Good coaches have a lot of say inside the organization, enabling them to be abusive. Bad coaches trying to pull the same antics have likely been run out of town rather quickly.

Edit: in addition to that, manipulative people tend to pick weak targets. I think it's very telling that the incidents we're hearing about have mostly been about marginal players or even injured ones.

If these antics were primarily about motivation, you'd think the primary targets would be the stars, as their performance is most important for team success. If however we assume that abusive behavior is mostly about the joy of bullying, then the targets should logically be players in vulnerable situations, as they make the for easy targets. The latter seems to be the case, not the former.

Tl:dr; success enables abuse, not the other way around.

[Itse]

As a separate note:

The first time I can remember a head coach getting canned because of his behavior towards players was when Raimo Summanen was fired as the head coach of Team Finland back in 2004. The timing was interesting as Summanen had just coached Finland to the World Cup final, meaning he was basically fired at the very top of his career.

Summanen was again fired in 2009 in Rapperswil Switzerland, after he had started cheering when the opposing team scored, after which his players refused to play for him... And in 2011 in Avangard of KHL again for not getting along with his players. Interestingly he was brought back the next season and lead the team all the way to the finals.

He's also been suspended by both SM-liiga and Mestis (the league below that) for shouting abuses at the opposing coach in separate occasions. He even got fined for slander in court because of the latter case. (He called the opposing coach a pedophile.)

... Makes me wonder, are Europeans ahead of the curve in firing this guy because of abusive behavior, or behind because they kept giving him new jobs? (I think his career is now likely over.)

[manwiches]

Ok. I''ve sat on this topic for a while as I wasn't able to articulate my thoughts very well.

First off, I don't condone any kind of racism. Being a visible minority, I have had experiences at several parts of my life which have made me uncomfortable. In sports and in life. It is not tolerable in the slightest.

Physical and mental abuse is no laughing matter either. Those that do so with the intention of breaking someone down and with malice is unacceptable.

This being said, this generation is far too sensitive to having their feelings hurt, and calling it abuse. Did my coaches/teachers/parents yell at me and hit me (without intention to hurt, more like a wake up bud) when I wasn't paying attention or acting out? Damn right. Did it hurt emotionally at the time? Likely, my pride and ego took a hit. Did it hurt physically? Not if I was wearing gear, and if not, a minor sting. But did that remind me to snap out of whatever was getting me distracted or to act out? You damn right. Was this sometimes blown out of proportion, and I felt like whoever was slapping me or yelling, wasn't understanding me or communicating to me effectively? You bet your butt. Did it break me? God no.

You know what these events and experiences in my life taught me? Real life isn't fair, and if I didn't have the skills to cope with adversity, and crappy people, I'd be crying to a wall and shutting down. There are comments on this board about how "abuse" is unacceptable in the work place. I agree, whole heartedly. But there is a fine line between saying you have a sh**y boss, and being abused.

I speak from experience, as my previous job, I had amazing bosses for years, but the last 5, I had the worst kind of boss and partners. Ones that played mental warfare games, threw me under the bus, talked behind everybody's back, etc. Honestly, I felt like I was mentally abused some days. But my experiences growing up, allowed me to handle the situation, and get through unscathed and better for it. Was this right? No. But sometimes there are situations where nothing can be done, and it's not criminal or "abusive".

There are great workplaces out there, and I am finally at one that is appalled when I convey my experiences at my old job. There are crummy people and places in the world, and I think that there is a fine line between being abusive, and just being a crummy person. People should never have to put up with abusive people or workplaces, but they should have the skills to handle crummy people. I do see the world changing slowly, to change the workplace culture to a much better environment, and I couldn't be happier. But there is still a good chunk that needs work, and to call every bad situation abuse is painting with a very wide brush.

I realize that there will be some who disagree, and that is fine. I just speak from my experience, and how I view it.

Sent from my SM-G950W using Tapatalk

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by manwiches

People should never have to put up with abusive people or workplaces, but they should have the skills to handle crummy people. I do see the world changing slowly, to change the workplace culture to a much better environment, and I couldn't be happier. But there is still a good chunk that needs work, and to call every bad situation abuse is painting with a very wide brush.

Is that happening here? I don’t see “every bad situation” being mislabeled as abuse. We have so far seen three out of over a hundred NHL coaches in the NHL who are undergoing investigation because of allegations, and a handful of the hundreds of coaches at the Major Junior level. That says to me that a few of the worst culprits are in fact being weeded out through all of this; why would anyone be upset if this results in removing the worst of the lot?

And I am unsure what your point is in complaining about the changing attitudes in society; are you suggesting that crappy workplace environments are something that we should just accept and not even try to improve?

[Looch City]

Side note: people putting the word abuse in quotations really irks me. It's nothing but victim blaming.

Like who the #### are you to say that what one person felt isn't actually abuse? Just because you went through a ####ty workplace/boss, doesn't mean others have to either.

[sureLoss]

Was with the Broncos for 10 years:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1201569005431140352

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Iggy City

Side note: people putting the word abuse in quotations really irks me. It's nothing but victim blaming.

Like who the #### are you to say that what one person felt isn't actually abuse? Just because you went through a ####ty workplace/boss, doesn't mean others have to either.

If these terms are to have common meaning they can't be entirely subjective. For instance, some people might think your post is itself abusive ("who the ### are you?" is pretty hostile). Does that mean they're right?

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Major Major

Cool story bro moment...

I got a chance to do some assistant coaching with a prep team out of winsport after I was done college. When the dome was tied up, the flames and whatever visiting team was in town would come practice. We'd mostly try to stay out of their way obviously, but Babcock was the only coach who went out of his Way to talk to me and the other young coach. He took an interest in what we were up to and provided some neat tidbits.

We didn't talk long, but he actually asked us if we could let them borrow a goalie for practice as mrazek was banged up. And so came the highlight of one goalie's young career.

The wings were by far the loosest team we saw come through. They were joking around tons and Babcock seemed pretty jovial with the players. I pretty much had the opposite impression of him as what is being portrayed now. I'm not trying to flip the narrative or say the players criticizing him are wrong, but just that like everyone he's got different sides to him and is probably not the embodiment of evil scum.

Thanks for sharing this. cool story!

I met Mike Keenan the summer before he started with the flames at an airport. I shyly went up to him to let him know I was a die hard flames fan and wishing him luck in the new gig. He was super nice & friendly during our brief conversation also.

I have no doubt, both were very big hard-asses in their job. My view is that there is a difference between a hard ass leader and a person who goes past the line of leader to ... I don't know what word I'd use. Both of these guys, have clearly gone past that line in their past.

I'm sure coaching tactics will evolve through this movement, and make coaches better people leaders rather than fear mongerers.

[Red]

Some here are overlooking the impact of authority.
A guy can be super nice to a stranger at an airport because he doesn't have any authority there.
The same guy can be an abusive tyrant to players because he "owns" their development and future. He is their boss.

Same for the examples of players being mean to other players. They are peers, so it's not the same.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Was with the Broncos for 10 years:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1201569005431140352

Small thing in itself, but a sign that a larger reckoning might indeed be building.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Is that happening here? I don’t see “every bad situation” being mislabeled as abuse. We have so far seen three out of over a hundred NHL coaches in the NHL who are undergoing investigation because of allegations, and a handful of the hundreds of coaches at the Major Junior level. That says to me that a few of the worst culprits are in fact being weeded out through all of this; why would anyone be upset if this results in removing the worst of the lot?

And I am unsure what your point is in complaining about the changing attitudes in society; are you suggesting that crappy workplace environments are something that we should just accept and not even try to improve?

I think he is talking in generalities, and you are talking in specifics. I agree with him that in spite of changes in society, and the tendency to not put up with abuse, you can't change human nature. There will always be bullies, and learning how to handle them is part of life.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

^ that’s a good story.

And worth discussing

The problem is that no one is disputing the quality of coaching, or the quality of the person some of the time.

He wasn’t in a position of authority over you, and didn’t rely on getting you to produce as part of his success.

Extreme examples but Bill Cosby was funny and Ted Bundy was reportedly charming some of the time

The NHL can use coaches without the kind of baggage that is in focus right now

I'm in absolute agreement that my brief interaction has no relation to player experience and is not in itself a defense of Babcock. The stories coming out are clear abuses of power and the allegations point pretty strongly to straight up abuse of players. That is inexcusable.

But to me, a serial rapist and serial murderer are monsters regardless of other acts. I don't know the true character of Babcock, but these trials held over social media make me nervous.

From the little I know, it seems that Babcock perpetuated a tough guy culture that clearly existed before him and will likely exist after him, unfortunately. His decisions and actions were his own, but they probably took root in his experience with what an effective hockey coach needed to do. How would we react if we heard a story of this kind about Scotty Bowman, Al Arbour or Pat Burns? Would that be beyond the pale? To drag legends from a different era down on the basis of mental manipulation and being physical with players? I dare say, it would be for me.

It also sounds like he was swallowed up by his own swelling ego over the years. I'd be curious to hear what his u of l players thought of him before the man became the figure he is today.

This is all to say that assuming every word we've heard about Babcock is true, he is not beyond redemption in my eyes. I have not labelled him as a monster because of this. In many ways, this could reveal the true person. I hope that he is humbled and will seek a path to becoming a different kind of coach and if that's what he's committed to, I hope someone at some level gives him another chance. It would be a neat story to see him return to the CIAU.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I think he is talking in generalities, and you are talking in specifics. I agree with him that in spite of changes in society, and the tendency to not put up with abuse, you can't change human nature. There will always be bullies, and learning how to handle them is part of life.

Being able to handle bullying is an oft overlooked quality that kids should be taught.

Especially in sports when the bullies come out of the woodwork a lot more.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I think he is talking in generalities, and you are talking in specifics. I agree with him that in spite of changes in society, and the tendency to not put up with abuse, you can't change human nature. There will always be bullies, and learning how to handle them is part of life.

Standing up to bullies is handling them. Getting rid of the worst cases instead of letting them pollute your workplace is a really good way of handling bullies, much better than silence and acceptance which is the old way.

It's the older generation that never learned how to handle bullies, which is why there's so many of them around.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

If these terms are to have common meaning they can't be entirely subjective. For instance, some people might think your post is itself abusive ("who the ### are you?" is pretty hostile). Does that mean they're right?

Yes they'd be right too. I would encourage them to speak out to let me know what I said was offensive. I would then apologize and be more mindful of my language.

Silence is consent, if no one speaks out, we won't get anywhere and it all continues. We should be encouraging more athletes to speak about these issues. That's how you stand up to bullies - letting them know what they're saying/doing is wrong.

[flamesfever]

Originally Posted by Azure

Being able to handle bullying is an oft overlooked quality that kids should be taught.

Especially in sports when the bullies come out of the woodwork a lot more.

Right. In my experience the bully will test you to see how much you will put up with. Basically they are cowards, and as soon as you stand your ground they will back off. It not only happens in sports but throughout all aspect of life.