Francis: Flames have started contract talks with Tkachuk and Rittich

[haiku]

you've just been flashed
disagree? sarsasm, whine
his way only way

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

lol.

It's so weird that tkachuk is in the first pp unit and backlund in the second.

It's almost like there is some reason for it that I just can't put my finger on.

I'm sure it's just a coincidence. Probably nothing to it.

Come on, man.

God. You are being so obtuse about this.

It's not about comparing players's skill-level and production on the powerplay. It is about pointing out that while Tkachuk is a more skilled offensive player than Backlund, the gap is not enormous. At even strength Tkachuk has scored 35 points in 48 games while playing on a line with Michael Backlund, who has scored 25 points in 44 games. It is about showing that while Tkachuk is an excellent player in his own right, comparing him directly as you prefer to do to his line mates is somewhat disingenuous, especially when the intention is to overtly inflate Tkachuk's value.

NO ONE is asserting that Backlund and Tkachuk are equally productive players—we all concede that Tkachuk is a better scoring forward. The point is to counter your ridiculous promotion of Backlund as an offensive blackhole that is obstructing Tkachuk's production. It's nonsense.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

If I was starting a team today and had my choice of Flames to pick (with their existing contract situation), the 2 that would be at the top of my list are Tkachuk and Hanafin.

But it's clearly open for debate to put Johnny there.

I see where you're going with contract considerations, but I disagree.

If you're building a team, you build around the best players. (The one caveat being that Giordano is 35) That means Gaudreau #1 and probably Lindholm #2, though I would agree that Tkachuk would be in the conversation for #2, as would Monahan.

Suggesting Tkachuk and Hanifin are 1,2 is kind of ridiculous. And I am a huge Hanifin fan.

[Kasi]

With the Backlund/Tkachuk debate at least we have proven that there is a Backlund bounce. Is there a Tkachuk bounce? Not sure but if there is one Backlund isn’t seeing it. I’d like more signs that he can excel away from Backlund before I go all in on him. His PP prowess is very good, but that’s not enough to pay him 9 million. I’d rather bridge him than get sucked into an 8 year 9 million dollar contract.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Jeebus. Yes, Tkachuk is a much better offensive player than Backlund. Yes, he deserves the PP1 time. I'm just saying that Backlund isn't a slug and if he was on PP1 you could add a few more points to his total. That's all. You are acting like Tkachuk is playing with Westgarth and Peluso.

Nah, i'm saying he's playing on the second line and replicating the stats the first liners are putting up.

That comparing him to players who have signed like Pastrnak who plays with first line players isn't doing justice to how remarkable of a season Tkachuk is having.

He's likely going to finish with 90 points and the winger he's played the most time with this season might not hit 30.

Those are insane numbers.

Compared to lining up with gaudreau and Monahan, Backlund and Bennett may as well be Westgarth and Peluso in this scenario. He is unquestionably the offensive line driver out there.

How is it even possible to be on a trend line that sees you score 20-25 more even strength points than the centre you see 99% of your even strength time with?

It boggles the mind what Tkachuk is doing right now, and it's going to be reflected in his salary negotiations.

Contrast that to backlund. This year he's averaging 1:46 on the PP and he's scored zero power play points.

One guy is an offensive superstar, the other guy for comparison's sake, may as well be a plumber. Tkachuk is 5th on the team for ev toi for forwards, but he's 3rd on the team in ev points. Maybe i'm just a rube, but i'm having trouble figuring out how this is even possible.

When I see textcritic say the gap between backlund and tkachuk isn't enormous, and then I look and see Tkachuk on pace to DOUBLE backlund's offensive production, all I can do is shake my head in bewilderment.

Are we watching the same player, here?

[Enoch Root]

Points are up this year - 90 is the new 70

Some of these arguments for Tkachuk are getting crazy. He is not a $9M player.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Nah, i'm saying he's playing on the second line and replicating the stats the first liners are putting up.

That comparing him to players who have signed like Pastrnak who plays with first line players isn't doing justice to how remarkable of a season Tkachuk is having.

He's likely going to finish with 90 points and the winger he's played the most time with this season might not hit 30.

Those are insane numbers.

Compared to lining up with gaudreau and Monahan, Backlund and Bennett may as well be Westgarth and Peluso in this scenario. He is unquestionably the offensive line driver out there.

How is it even possible to be on a trend line that sees you score 20-25 more even strength points than the centre you see 99% of your even strength time with?

It boggles the mind what Tkachuk is doing right now, and it's going to be reflected in his salary negotiations.

Contrast that to backlund. This year he's averaging 1:46 on the PP and he's scored zero power play points.

One guy is an offensive superstar, the other guy for comparison's sake, may as well be a plumber. Tkachuk is 5th on the team for ev toi for forwards, but he's 3rd on the team in ev points. Maybe i'm just a rube, but i'm having trouble figuring out how this is even possible.

When I see textcritic say the gap between backlund and tkachuk isn't enormous, and then I look and see Tkachuk on pace to DOUBLE backlund's offensive production, all I can do is shake my head in bewilderment.

Are we watching the same player, here?

Backlund is on pace for 47. Frolik is on pace for 44 (by games played). Neither of them get PP1 time, and Frolik doesn't get much PP time at all.

Tkachuk has gotten 20 of his 55 points on PP1 - and to his credit, he has earned a spot on PP1, but don't try and paint a picture that he is getting 3 times as many points as his line-mates.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Points are up this year - 90 is the new 70

Some of these arguments for Tkachuk are getting crazy. He is not a $9M player.

it's equally as crazy to think he could/should sign for less than 7, no matter the term.

[Kasi]

I don’t think anyone here has said less than 7. I think 7.5 is fair enough even if it means only six years.

[GordonBlue]

Originally Posted by Kasi

I don’t think anyone here has said less than 7. I think 7.5 is fair enough even if it means only six years.

a couple, if it were a 6 year contract, but only a couple. I think most of that is jokes about him being under the "gio cap" and Tre being a wizard.

I don't think anyone would be too disappointed if he's in the 7.5 range.
I think if you want him for 8 years, the contract may be over 8 per year.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

...He's likely going to finish with 90 points and the winger he's played the most time with this season might not hit 30.

...Compared to lining up with gaudreau and Monahan, Backlund and Bennett may as well be Westgarth and Peluso in this scenario. He is unquestionably the offensive line driver out there.

How is it even possible to be on a trend line that sees you score 20-25 more even strength points than the centre you see 99% of your even strength time with?...

This is textbook propaganda and obfuscation. I am not sure why anyone should take you seriously when you retreat to these sorts of exaggerations.

[Flash Walken]

Propaganda? Lol.

Ok guys, see you when tkachuk signs I guess.

[Kasi]

Walken if he’s such an offensive driver on that line why has his line mates seen no change in production on his line? Guys who get paid nine million dollars a year actually tend to make their linemates better. But there has been little sign that his presence has done anything f to bump Backlund and Froliks numbers. They’re still putting up similar numbers to when they were on a line with Bennett. Sure they’re not great offensive players but if he was that good he should give some bump. I’m not expecting McDavid level changes but I should be at least seeing something.

i like Tkachuk a lot but I think it’s a mistake if we pay him 9 million. And to me the main thing it comes down to is his skating. I love his intangibles but I think we’re well past the point of him improving his skating game. And that will become a liability at some point.

[LWcrowfoot]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is textbook propaganda and obfuscation. I am not sure why anyone should take you seriously when you retreat to these sorts of exaggerations.

You see this a lot. With contract negotiations some fans will either side with the player or the GM, no in-between, no nuance. Flash is 100% guilty of this, a complete inability to understand the possible negotiation tactics of management. When confronted with other possibilities he reverts to exaggeration and borderline childish behaviour. Impossible to debate, not worth the effort.

Ok guys, see you when tkachuk signs I guess.

See you guys when he signs, as in won't be seen until then? Is that a promise?

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Backlund is on pace for 47. Frolik is on pace for 44 (by games played). Neither of them get PP1 time, and Frolik doesn't get much PP time at all.

Tkachuk has gotten 20 of his 55 points on PP1 - and to his credit, he has earned a spot on PP1, but don't try and paint a picture that he is getting 3 times as many points as his line-mates.

This is a good point. And comparing Tkachuk’s PP production to Backlund’s is preposterous. The difference in icetime and quality of linemates is immense. Giving Tkachuk credit for producing with less offensively skilled players is certainly appropriate but then you shouldn’t ignore the benefit he gets from playing with the team’s best players on PP1.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by LWcrowfoot

You see this a lot. With contract negotiations some fans will either side with the player or the GM, no in-between, no nuance. Flash is 100% guilty of this, a complete inability to understand the possible negotiation tactics of management. When confronted with other possibilities he reverts to exaggeration and borderline childish behaviour. Impossible to debate, not worth the effort.


See you guys when he signs, as in won't be seen until then? Is that a promise?

I swear some posters actually want the Flames to sign really expensive deals. I'm not sure why other than to say "I told you so". Check back on the contract threads for Gio and Gaudreau. Heck, look at the predictions for Hamilton, Hanifin and Lindholm.

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

One guy is an offensive superstar, the other guy for comparison's sake, may as well be a plumber.

Yeah, sorry Backlund, your princess is in another castle apparently

[The Boy Wonder]

Originally Posted by Kasi

I don’t think anyone here has said less than 7. I think 7.5 is fair enough even if it means only six years.

I honestly hope we get 8 years from chuckie

But I also look at his relative lack of speed even this early in his career, and the way the game is trending to be faster and faster I am concerned he wont be able to keep up if we sign him to a 6 and then another long contract after that.

I hope that he gets paid, and he will be worth every penny but I don't think he's the type of player whose game will age well into his 30s.

[LWcrowfoot]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

This is a good point. And comparing Tkachuk’s PP production to Backlund’s is preposterous. The difference in icetime and quality of linemates is immense. Giving Tkachuk credit for producing with less offensively skilled players is certainly appropriate but then you shouldn’t ignore the benefit he gets from playing with the team’s best players on PP1.

And that's not even discrediting Tkachuk's abilities and chemistry with the other four on the PP. He's obviously a huge part of the power play and is in no way a passenger but you can't just ignore that production.

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I swear some posters actually want the Flames to sign really expensive deals. I'm not sure why other than to say "I told you so". Check back on the contract threads for Gio and Gaudreau. Heck, look at the predictions for Hamilton, Hanifin and Lindholm.

Totally agreed. Some posters would rather be right if Tkachuk signs high then be happy if the team gets a deal

Originally Posted by The Boy Wonder

I honestly hope we get 8 years from chuckie

But I also look at his relative lack of speed even this early in his career, and the way the game is trending to be faster and faster I am concerned he wont be able to keep up if we sign him to a 6 and then another long contract after that.

I hope that he gets paid, and he will be worth every penny but I don't think he's the type of player whose game will age well into his 30s.

Tkachuk is a highly intelligent hockey player. That hockey IQ will serve him better in the later stages than a player who relies on speed. Intelligence and his playmaking abilities will give him a long career IMO.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Kasi

Walken if he’s such an offensive driver on that line why has his line mates seen no change in production on his line? Guys who get paid nine million dollars a year actually tend to make their linemates better. But there has been little sign that his presence has done anything f to bump Backlund and Froliks numbers. They’re still putting up similar numbers to when they were on a line with Bennett. Sure they’re not great offensive players but if he was that good he should give some bump. I’m not expecting McDavid level changes but I should be at least seeing something.

well, with deference to backlund who I think has struggled with injuries this year, he definitely is improving those he is playing with. Bennett went from an 18 point pace to a 37 point pace after being put on the line with tkachuk and backlund. Bingo posted their rates increasing by over a point per 60, in froliks case, more than 2 more points per 60. Would be interesting if there is a player on the roster who saw a production decline playing with tkachuk this year.

The powerplay has definitely seen a bump, and the top 4 defensive group have all significantly improved their scoring rates. I don't have stats in that, maybe supermatt or bingo want to chime in here with scoring rates for the defense when in the ice with tkachuk.

i like Tkachuk a lot but I think it’s a mistake if we pay him 9 million. And to me the main thing it comes down to is his skating. I love his intangibles but I think we’re well past the point of him improving his skating game. And that will become a liability at some point.

I can get behind this take. I hope the flames aren't paying tkachuk 9 million either as it would really interfere with filling out the rest of the lineup. Though I do think his skating is much improved as compared to last year or his rookie year.