Sam Bennett at center - Why I Do Not Believe It Was A Failure

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Poe969

I think the roster will look different next year. Backlund will be traded, Monahan will be #2C and Bennett will be #3C and Ryan #4C

If I had to bet my life savings on a single guy to not be traded this year, it's Backlund. NTC for 1 more year, he's simply not waiving it with a new(ish) baby during a pandemic.

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Why do we keep trying to trade Ryan? All he does is make our team better. He helped regain Lucic’s confidence back, got Dube on another level in his game. It was because of Ryan that the Lucic - Bennett - Dube line already had 2/3 members clicking, all Bennett needed to do now was play his game. And he did, and we saw a dominant line. That was because of Ryan. He also made the 4th line a decent thing to watch when we’d ice freaking Rinaldo with him.

If anyone in the top 9 goes now next season, it would be nice to just have Ryan slot right in. He’s our new Swiss Army knife needed when an injury or player falters.

I agree to a point that Ryan helped Lucic and Dubé, but it's a little odd to give the credit for our best line in the playoffs to the guy who was removed from it...

[Gaskal]

Hits men by the hundreds, and if we ever got past the 1st round he'd consume our foes with fireballs from his eyes and lightning bolts from his arse.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Bennett had a torn tricep for most of the playoffs. Despite that fact, he ranked:

1st for goals
T1 for points
T1 is even strength goals
T1 in even strength points
1st in +/-

despite being 13th in TOI, 7th among forwards.

I never thought durian smelled so sweet before! I guess if you have a pile of dog poo to sort thru, you'd find the least smelly one and call it gold! It's a 6-game series and it's made out to be like he's been the greatest sliced cheese for the past 6 seasons.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by CSharp

I never thought durian smelled so sweet before! I guess if you have a pile of dog poo to sort thru, you'd find the least smelly one and call it gold! It's a 6-game series and it's made out to be like he's been the greatest sliced cheese for the past 6 seasons.

It's ten games, not six.

All of them important.

They don't count for you? They don't give you any pause at all in what Sam Bennett could be up the middle for a season?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CSharp

I never thought durian smelled so sweet before! I guess if you have a pile of dog poo to sort thru, you'd find the least smelly one and call it gold! It's a 6-game series and it's made out to be like he's been the greatest sliced cheese for the past 6 seasons.

Nothing makes a solid point like exaggeration. But to your reference of 6 seasons, it isn't just this year people are talking about - he has been the best Flame in every playoff series over that 6 years. Still a pretty small sample, but it's definitely a trend.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Nothing makes a solid point like exaggeration. But to your reference of 6 seasons, it isn't just this year people are talking about - he has been the best Flame in every playoff series over that 6 years. Still a pretty small sample, but it's definitely a trend.

...and it's also not a flash in a pan as you and AustinL pointed out.

Underlying numbers have been strong for a long time. This is a player you hope your pro scouts find and acquire, but can't because smart organizations don't trade players in Bennett's situation - they help improve the player's circumstances, and reap the rewards.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

It's ten games, not six.

All of them important.

They don't count for you? They don't give you any pause at all in what Sam Bennett could be up the middle for a season?

He was the best player in the playoffs for Calgary last year, point per game, and followed it up with 15 points, so I don't think people are out of line to be pessimistic about Bennett cracking 30 points for the second time in his going on 6 year career.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

He was the best player in the playoffs for Calgary last year, point per game, and followed it up with 15 points, so I don't think people are out of line to be pessimistic about Bennett cracking 30 points for the second time in his going on 6 year career.

You're leaving out the circumstances completely though.

Last year he was up and down the roster in a 5 game series where the Flames were getting worked.

This year he was a center (not a wing), on a line with consistent linemates and was a consistently impactful player.

That doesn't guarantee anything at all, and I certainly understand the reluctance to assume he's turned a corner, but it's food for thought and a change in circumstances that warrant a look next year in my opinion.

The two playoff years aren't really comparable in my mind, other than his consistency to show up at playoff time.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

You're leaving out the circumstances completely though.

Last year he was up and down the roster in a 5 game series where the Flames were getting worked.

This year he was a center (not a wing), on a line with consistent linemates and was a consistently impactful player.

That doesn't guarantee anything at all, and I certainly understand the reluctance to assume he's turned a corner, but it's food for thought and a change in circumstances that warrant a look next year in my opinion.

The two playoff years aren't really comparable in my mind, other than his consistency to show up at playoff time.

I have long since moved on from the idea of trading Bennett, he'll obviously get a look because who the hell else is there? Janko Experiment is over, Ryan looks meh and if you'd give me a choice between who plays 3rd line C between ryan and bennett I'd say Bennett if only to keep Ryan as fresh as possible for heavy PK minutes (which bennett doesn't play).

ALso I feel like bennett was up and down the roster this year as well, it just happens his first shift on the top line he took a hooking penalty, but he was getting #1 PP minutes some games it felt like, and saw time on lines 1, 2 and 3.

he had one game against the jets where he played more than 14 minutes and then played over 14 minutes in every single game against the Stars. once Tkachuk was out bennett was playing ~18 minutes per game.

Seems like he was pretty up and down the lineup.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I have long since moved on from the idea of trading Bennett, he'll obviously get a look because who the hell else is there? Janko Experiment is over, Ryan looks meh and if you'd give me a choice between who plays 3rd line C between ryan and bennett I'd say Bennett if only to keep Ryan as fresh as possible for heavy PK minutes (which bennett doesn't play).

ALso I feel like bennett was up and down the roster this year as well, it just happens his first shift on the top line he took a hooking penalty, but he was getting #1 PP minutes some games it felt like, and saw time on lines 1, 2 and 3.

he had one game against the jets where he played more than 14 minutes and then played over 14 minutes in every single game against the Stars. once Tkachuk was out bennett was playing ~18 minutes per game.

Seems like he was pretty up and down the lineup.

110 minutes with Lucic and Dube five on five.

Next closest forward in time together was Gaudreau was 10. After that Ryan with six.

That's not up and down the lineup at all.

He certainly filled in for Tkachuk on powerplay unit one after the injury, but no he was consistently the third line center through the 10 games.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

110 minutes with Lucic and Dube five on five.

Next closest forward in time together was Gaudreau was 10. After that Ryan with six.

That's not up and down the lineup at all.

He certainly filled in for Tkachuk on powerplay unit one after the injury, but no he was consistently the third line center through the 10 games.

What were his minutes like against colorado?

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'm skeptical Bennett can translate his playoff success into being a productive 2C or 3C over a full season.

Most of his goals were scored with a ferocious forecheck and by crashing and banging around the net. It's extremely difficult to maintain that kind of relentlessness for 82 games.

The game is refereed differently in the playoffs vs regular season. Bennett would take a couple minors a game if he played that way all the time.

The role of an NHL center is to maintain possession of the puck, use vision and smarts distribute it to wingers, and backcheck down low when he doesn't have the puck. Bennett still doesn't do those things. He's still not a very good passer, and he's not great without the puck.

You have to ask yourself why a guy with his wheels, who plays in the bottom 6, has not been entrusted to kill penalties. It's because his anticipation, patience, and discipline are lacking.

He's fun guy to watch, and his style of play is well-suited to the compressed intensity of the playoffs. But I just don't see him as a line-driving NHL centre.

I actually agree with a lot of your takes. Bennett’s game has always seen an incredible uptick in the playoffs because his intensity increases significantly in the post season. Playoff Sam Bennett is absolutely a real thing.

I have my doubts that he can keep this level of play in the regular season as well much like Micheal Ferand. But I think with Lucic and Dube as his new linemates, can still be be a very effective line. He also showed some powerplay prowess in front of the net. I’ve said it before, but I think he needs to start learning how to tip in pucks like Tkachuk does, as it could make him a handful to deal with in front of the net.

Ultimately, if he doesn’t excel in the regular season, but can do it in the playoffs, that’s still tremendously valuable as the Flames’ still need the players to get them through the playoffs. Hopefully this team will still have enough players to get the team to the playoffs though in the end.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

What were his minutes like against colorado?

More of a 50/50 split

25 minutes with Jankowski and Neal
20 minutes with Monahan and Gaudreau

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

More of a 50/50 split

25 minutes with Jankowski and Neal
20 minutes with Monahan and Gaudreau

But you're comparing the Jets+Stars series to the Colorado series.

Is that the same for The Stars Vs Colorado series (the actual playoffs)?

[DeluxeMoustache]

I can offer this article, which I read a few years ago, but sticks with me, and I think of it when I see such discussions

“Why facts don’t change our minds”

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2...ange-our-minds

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

More of a 50/50 split

25 minutes with Jankowski and Neal
20 minutes with Monahan and Gaudreau

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

But you're comparing the Jets+Stars series to the Colorado series.

Is that the same for The Stars Vs Colorado series (the actual playoffs)?

Ok, so i'm trying to figure this out myself here

Dobber says Bennett Lucic Dube were together for 80% of bennett's even strength icetime in the last 3 games against the stars. But what's weird is when you sort by icetime by period, he played 10% of his 3rd period icetime with the top line but as a fourth forward? Calgary couldn't have had that much time with the goalie pulled in the 3rd period in the last 3 games, right?

Was Ward somehow running a 4F 1 D line combo for a significant amount of time without me noticing?

When I contrast Bennett's icetime between the colorado and dallas series' there are some other interesting things that jump out

He was averaging just under 11 minutes per game at even strength against Colorado but over 14 minutes per game at even strength against Dallas?

Mangiapane, Dube, Lucic and Bennett were all within 20 seconds of each other in terms of even strength icetime.

But when I look at Bennett's actual icetime it looks like it fluctuated from ~12 minutes a night to ~15 minutes a night.

When I look at ice time splits of other players the parallel between this year and last year seems to be between Bennett and Reider. Last year Bennett got the top line bump from the fourth line that Reider got this year.

Rather than moving up to different lines this year, it looks like bennett's entire line moved up to become different lines this year.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

But you're comparing the Jets+Stars series to the Colorado series.

Is that the same for The Stars Vs Colorado series (the actual playoffs)?

Where exactly are you going with this?

This set of games was different. He had a defined role with constant teammates and continuity. Others have said he got lucky last year with his production and wasn't playing all that well. You can't make that argument in these ten games.

So call the Winnipeg series nothing if you want, it doesn't change any of that.

[SeanCharles]

Sam Bennett is a center.

Plain and simple.

He can better utilize his speed up the middle, is actually quite good at faceoffs and isn’t a liability defensively.

I think it’s finally time we get to see what he can do as he will finally have consistent assignments and get top 9 icetime.

I hope next year they start getting him some more special teams time as well.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Where exactly are you going with this?

This set of games was different. He had a defined role with constant teammates and continuity. Others have said he got lucky last year with his production and wasn't playing all that well. You can't make that argument in these ten games.

So call the Winnipeg series nothing if you want, it doesn't change any of that.

Well I don't think *I* was saying he wasn't playing all that well. I think I just said he was the best player on the team for that round.

You're saying this year could be different because the circumstances between the Colorado series and the Dallas series were different.

I'm saying he was great in both series and I don't think it says much of anything meaningfully about his role changing necessarily because even after being great against colorado he followed it up with a subpar season.

I don't think the circumstances are much different. He worked his way up in terms of minutes in both series. Against colorado he started the series with ~7 minutes even strength in game one to almost 16 minutes even strength by game 5.

The same kind of thing happened this year, except he started on the 3rd line this time instead of the 4th line, so instead of starting at 7:36 EVTOI he was at 12 minutes and worked himself up to ~15 mins by the end of the series.

The same scenario played itself out with the top line, where bennett was the best 4th liner on the team so he got the promotion to the top line as the coach shortened the bench, whereas this year Reider was the best player on the 4th line and got the promotion to the top line when the coach shortened the bench. That's not me knocking Bennett, just pointing out he and lucic and dube were already seeing icetime bordering on second line minutes so there wasn't really anywhere else to put him. The flames only had 2 lines going this year his was one of them.

I don't know if Bennett was any better this year than last but his supporting cast definitely was because James Neal ####ing sucked the life out of that team and Lucic was decent/good until the final game.

That's not me being down on Bennett, just to say I don't think the circumstances were really that much different between the rounds. Mike Smith and Talbot were both all world and it felt like the Flames were getting basically just as worked this year as last and in the elimination game basically the same thing happened; the flood gates opened on an otherwise leak proof goalie.

[Bingo]

Fair enough.

The eye test to me has Bennett a left wing on a failing line, then an energy player on the top line against Colorado. He did great.

This year a play driving center that took the puck to the net, found open teammates, was a wrecking ball for hitting and got shots on net like we haven't seen in his career.

Otherwise I'd agree with you. He played a different more consistent role and it was noticeable.

I don't like comparing stats between playoff series though because a lot of it is team driven but for kicks ...

Individual stats

Stat .... Last Year .... This Year
Shots/60 6.8 11.4 (almost double)
ixG 0.4/60 0.8/60 (double)
iHD 2.3/60 4.1/60 (big jump)

Possession stats
Stat ... Last year ... this year
xGF 1.8/60 2.6/60 (big jump)
xGA 2.9/60 2.2/60 (solid improvement)

As said ... hard to compare some of those stats given how poorly the team played last year, but Bennett is up across the board.

But trust me I'm more than ready for the normal regular season let down. I just hope the team gives the situation oxygen to grow him as a center and find out.