Fire Brad Treliving

[Monahammer]

If Brad really wants to fix the teams "give a crap" meter then brodie should find his way out the door too.

I want to give Brad one more season but if the team falls flat again I think we part ways. I'd also like to see him grab another goalie. Go hard for saros

[goflamesgo18]

Those people saying this is a horrible deal obviously got worked up about the possible return for Hamilton. They assumed we would fetch acrosby, Letang and Pens next 3 firsts.

Hanifin is quickly trending to be as good as or better than Hamilton. Lindholm is a major upgrade on Ferland, with tons more upside. And Fox wasnt going to sign here. Simple as that.

Although I agree with the trade, I aslo agree with the statement that if Flames miss playoffs Treliving is gone. I still think Flames will add another top 6 RW as well. Possibly Neal/Perron/Nino

[Groot]

This has easily been one of the most confusing fan responses I've seen from Flames fans. And the level of hatred and vitriol surrounding this trade is shocking.

We didn't trade Adam Fox. We traded the rights to Fox. If there's a player that seems set to go the UFA route, it's him, so how much value do people think his rights have? A team is trading to try and convince him to sign there, which seems unlikely unless it happens to be whatever team(s) are high on his list, and I can't imagine Carolina is one of them. Teams aren't lining up to give assets to try and negotiate with a player that seems set for UFA.

Ferland has 89 points in 250 NHL games and 135 PIM. He's not some intimidating force (unless you're the Canucks) and nearly half his points came last year playing with one of the best duos in the league. When Treliving said "if he has a season like last one he'll be in for a big pay day" I think the word "if" is pretty predominant in the statement. Is Ferland a 40 point player when he's not with such a strong duo? His stats and history say no, even including portions of last year. He'll be 27 next year. He would have riden Mony/Johnny to a bigger paycheque than he deserved, and Tre would have had to risk overpaying or lose him for nothing. Lindholm has 100 more points than Ferland and is 4 years younger. Anyone that doesn't see that as a massive upgrade is kidding themselves.

Hamilton is a great player and I couldn't care less about this "character" and museum talk. We upgraded at forward and added what should be a core top-6 forward piece going forward. On defence, we may have upgraded as well, as Hanifin could develop beyond Hamilton (especially on the defensive side) and at worse he's a very minor downgrade offensively and an improvement defensively. Also 21, which is crazy. I think fans are seriously overvaluing Dougie and undervaluing Hanifin.

Is Gio/Hamilton that much better than Gio/Brodie was? I think moving Brodie back to his natural side will see a massive return to form (where he put up Hamilton points numbers) and in actuality Brodano > Gio/Hamilton. Then is Hanifin/Hamonic better than Brodie/Hamonic? Impossible to say now but considering the train wreck Brodie is on his off side, I'd say most likely yes. So our top 4 D has (theoretically) improved. Our forwards have significantly improved. We have two more young core pieces.

Like Bingo said, this isn't a fire Tre moment, this is a thank God he's been extended moment.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Groot

Is Gio/Hamilton that much better than Gio/Brodie was? I think moving Brodie back to his natural side will see a massive return to form (where he put up Hamilton points numbers) and in actuality Brodano > Gio/Hamilton. Then is Hanifin/Hamonic better than Brodie/Hamonic? Impossible to say now but considering the train wreck Brodie is on his off side, I'd say most likely yes. So our top 4 D has (theoretically) improved. Our forwards have significantly improved. We have two more young core pieces.

I was getting myself ready for a top line right wing for Hamilton. This would have been a boost to offence but then a reliance on Kulak or Stone or Andersson in the top four to fill a pretty big hole.

So I'm impressed the guy added a second line right winger and a clear cut top four defenseman that could be a top pairing defender as early as next season.

I'll keep saying it ... one core player out two in. Those deals built contenders.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That's such a weak argument and one used far too often.

You don't need to be a homer to disagree with people. I said earlier that a trade has to get uncomfortable to make sense or it wouldn't happen. When you see Leaf fans tossing out crap and the whole world makes fun of them its case in point.

The Hamilton for Lindhom start was way too much from Calgary
The rumour moved to Hamilton for Lindholm and Hanafin and I was thinking Calgary had to add.
The deal came down and it felt like Calgary added more than I would have wanted to get it done ... which is often the case in trades.
Fox news tips it back to making sense in my mind.

You are taking a rational stance, and you usually do.... but there are pages and pages of posts that ratcheted up the expectations on the Hamilton rumor thread.

You are not representative of a vocal group that Hamilton being Flame makes him top 6 or higher in the league D-men.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

You are taking a rational stance, and you usually do.... but there are pages and pages of posts that ratcheted up the expectations on the Hamilton rumor thread.

You are not representative of a vocal group that Hamilton being Flame makes him top 6 or higher in the league D-men.

Fair ... and to be honest I think I misunderstood your post. You're right no one was talking about Ferland added to Hamilton

[TheoFleury]

Now he has to add a JVR or a Neal imo. The offense has not been improved at all though the team is more balanced. As currently constructed, I wonder where the goals will come from just like last year. His future as the GM might come down to needing to hand out one of those dreaded ufa deals.

So 6 × 6.5m for JVR, maybe slightly less for Neal, or even a guy like perron ( though he's more of what we already have). Something like this needs to happen because the flames are out of expendable trade chips.

[Classic_Sniper]

You can never question Tre’s work ethic, but I think it’s fair to start questioning his player evaluation. A lot of the players he has acquired or signed have been pretty underwhelming and even though both Lindholm and Hanifin are young and still have potential to grow, I’m not sure either one are going to be big drivers of play.

Lindholm especially, guy might just end up being another Michael Frolik. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but we need more high end talent, not more middling forwards. We barely have any assets left to trade, so Treliving better make a big splash in the UFA market with all that cap space we have or else I forsee just another bubble playoff team going into October.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Now he has to add a JVR or a Neal imo. The offense has not been improved at all though the team is more balanced. As currently constructed, I wonder where the goals will come from just like last year. His future as the GM might come down to needing to hand out one of those dreaded ufa deals.

So 6 × 6.5m for JVR, maybe slightly less for Neal, or even a guy like perron ( though he's more of what we already have). Something like this needs to happen because the flames are out of expendable trade chips.

I could be wrong, but I don't think we see Treliving go after any of the big name UFA wingers. (Perron, Neal, JVR). They will need $6 million per or more with terms that take them to at least 35 years old.

I think he kicks tires on Tavares.
If that doesn't work he tries to add another C/W hybrid via trade.
If that doesn't work they look to get guys like Bozak and Ryan on shorter term deals.

[smiggy77]

Originally Posted by Groot

This has easily been one of the most confusing fan responses I've seen from Flames fans. And the level of hatred and vitriol surrounding this trade is shocking.

We didn't trade Adam Fox. We traded the rights to Fox. If there's a player that seems set to go the UFA route, it's him, so how much value do people think his rights have? A team is trading to try and convince him to sign there, which seems unlikely unless it happens to be whatever team(s) are high on his list, and I can't imagine Carolina is one of them. Teams aren't lining up to give assets to try and negotiate with a player that seems set for UFA.

Ferland has 89 points in 250 NHL games and 135 PIM. He's not some intimidating force (unless you're the Canucks) and nearly half his points came last year playing with one of the best duos in the league. When Treliving said "if he has a season like last one he'll be in for a big pay day" I think the word "if" is pretty predominant in the statement. Is Ferland a 40 point player when he's not with such a strong duo? His stats and history say no, even including portions of last year. He'll be 27 next year. He would have riden Mony/Johnny to a bigger paycheque than he deserved, and Tre would have had to risk overpaying or lose him for nothing. Lindholm has 100 more points than Ferland and is 4 years younger. Anyone that doesn't see that as a massive upgrade is kidding themselves.

Hamilton is a great player and I couldn't care less about this "character" and museum talk. We upgraded at forward and added what should be a core top-6 forward piece going forward. On defence, we may have upgraded as well, as Hanifin could develop beyond Hamilton (especially on the defensive side) and at worse he's a very minor downgrade offensively and an improvement defensively. Also 21, which is crazy. I think fans are seriously overvaluing Dougie and undervaluing Hanifin.

Is Gio/Hamilton that much better than Gio/Brodie was? I think moving Brodie back to his natural side will see a massive return to form (where he put up Hamilton points numbers) and in actuality Brodano > Gio/Hamilton. Then is Hanifin/Hamonic better than Brodie/Hamonic? Impossible to say now but considering the train wreck Brodie is on his off side, I'd say most likely yes. So our top 4 D has (theoretically) improved. Our forwards have significantly improved. We have two more young core pieces.

Like Bingo said, this isn't a fire Tre moment, this is a thank God he's been extended moment.

Bang on!

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

Now he has to add a JVR or a Neal imo. The offense has not been improved at all though the team is more balanced. As currently constructed, I wonder where the goals will come from just like last year. His future as the GM might come down to needing to hand out one of those dreaded ufa deals.

So 6 × 6.5m for JVR, maybe slightly less for Neal, or even a guy like perron ( though he's more of what we already have). Something like this needs to happen because the flames are out of expendable trade chips.

You are correct. We just lost goals with the total additions and subtractions. Unless Lindholm miraculously becomes a 30 goal scorer, we need to acquire a legit, bonafide, no questions asked sniper if we ever want to be an elite team.

[Pointman]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I was getting myself ready for a top line right wing for Hamilton. This would have been a boost to offence but then a reliance on Kulak or Stone or Andersson in the top four to fill a pretty big hole.

So I'm impressed the guy added a second line right winger and a clear cut top four defenseman that could be a top pairing defender as early as next season.

I'll keep saying it ... one core player out two in. Those deals built contenders.

The point is not so much about the return per we. But rather about this trade sealing the fact that Treliving went after wrong guy to build his defense around. It took him three good years to comprehend that one can't win with Hamilton as key player. And right after that he went after two highly touted youngsters from losing organization who apparently were not viewed as irreplaceable core by that organization. Which makes one doubt whether this time Treliving has got the right guys to win with or he misevaluate Lindholm and Hanifin as well.

[TheoFleury]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I could be wrong, but I don't think we see Treliving go after any of the big name UFA wingers. (Perron, Neal, JVR). They will need $6 million per or more with terms that take them to at least 35 years old.

I think he kicks tires on Tavares.
If that doesn't work he tries to add another C/W hybrid via trade.
If that doesn't work they look to get guys like Bozak and Ryan on shorter term deals.

I just don't see where another trade will come from unless BT wants to further canabalize the team's future. It's either ufa or bust imo, and guys like Ryan won't move that needle.

BT should and probably does realize that whoever he signs could likely be bought out with a compliance buyout after the next cba is signed if need be.

If I'm the GM I'm looking at extending the two new acquisitions to hopefully 5m or less, adding 6m-7m a ufa and saving the rest for Tkachuk after Brouwer is bought out next offseason.

Can't see the flames not at least trying to make a splash in ufa, despite what Conroy etc says. This team just isn't good enough yet and guys like stone, lazar and Bennett aren't going to fetch a top 6 guy, picks are at a premium and there's a no expendable prospects to deal now that fox is gone.

[Manhattanboy]

The more I think about this trade the angrier I get.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Pointman

The point is not so much about the return per we. But rather about this trade sealing the fact that Treliving went after wrong guy to build his defense around. It took him three good years to comprehend that one can't win with Hamilton as key player. And right after that he went after two highly touted youngsters from losing organization who apparently were not viewed as irreplaceable core by that organization. Which makes one doubt whether this time Treliving has got the right guys to win with or he misevaluate Lindholm and Hanifin as well.

And that's fair.

I'm a commodity trader, which like a GM means you will literally die of stress if you hold yourself to being 100% right. The good ones get it right 55-60% of the time while always managing your position to the down with the safe effectiveness as the giddiness from the top.

If you can't stop yourself out on a bad call you don't last long.

Everyone is allowed to have their own view on Treliving and if you feel he's wrong 60% of the time than all you have is a poor evaluator with stones to get out of mistakes

I'm more in the stones to go with being a pretty bright GM category.

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by Pointman

The point is not so much about the return per we. But rather about this trade sealing the fact that Treliving went after wrong guy to build his defense around. It took him three good years to comprehend that one can't win with Hamilton as key player. And right after that he went after two highly touted youngsters from losing organization who apparently were not viewed as irreplaceable core by that organization. Which makes one doubt whether this time Treliving has got the right guys to win with or he misevaluate Lindholm and Hanifin as well.

"The right guys to win with" is impossible to predict, even for people working in the NHL, but doubly so for fans. Did Kessel ever look like the right guy to win with? He looks like a bear leaguer who cares more about drinking after the game than winning, but two cups later he definitely has what it takes to help a team win. As recently as Game 2 against Columbus Ovechkin was still considered a guy who couldn't win the big games, but 2 months later he is the hero of a dominating Stanley Cup run.

There are a million factors that go into winning, and there is absolutely no reason to think that Lindhom and Hanifin can't be guys that can help a team win. And for that matter, there is no reason to think Hamilton can't be on a championship team either.

[TOfan]

Love the absurd comment that Fox was a 'throw in' as though the Flames just gave him away at no addition cost.

It's like going to a restaurant and ordering a burger. Normally you get fries with the burger....You have to pay for those fries, they're not free.

Some of the commentary on here is astounding.

[868904]

Originally Posted by Pointman

The point is not so much about the return per we. But rather about this trade sealing the fact that Treliving went after wrong guy to build his defense around. It took him three good years to comprehend that one can't win with Hamilton as key player. And right after that he went after two highly touted youngsters from losing organization who apparently were not viewed as irreplaceable core by that organization. Which makes one doubt whether this time Treliving has got the right guys to win with or he misevaluate Lindholm and Hanifin as well.

Is it realistic that you only trade and acquire players from winning organizations? What would the price be? Wouldn't it be much more significant? How much do you think Roman Josi will cost? How much do you think Victor Hedman will cost? How much do you think Brayden Point will cost? How much do you think you think Trouba will cost? How much do you think Kyle Connor will cost?

Highly touted youngsters from winning organizations who are viewed as irreplaceable are NOT available or have a significantly higher cost.

You take your chance with guys who ARE available in the hopes that they can realize their potential with your team.

Treliving is buying low with Lindholm and Hanifin relative to their potential.

Treliving is selling high on both Hamilton and Ferland.

That's what a good dealer does.

[Beninho]

This thread is ridiculous and impulsive. It was a fair hockey trade, haven’t even seen how Lindholm and Hanifin will look on this team. This thread could look very stupid very soon.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Pointman

The point is not so much about the return per we. But rather about this trade sealing the fact that Treliving went after wrong guy to build his defense around. It took him three good years to comprehend that one can't win with Hamilton as key player. And right after that he went after two highly touted youngsters from losing organization who apparently were not viewed as irreplaceable core by that organization. Which makes one doubt whether this time Treliving has got the right guys to win with or he misevaluate Lindholm and Hanifin as well.

I just don't get this take at all.

He went out and acquired a 21 year old defenseman with all the talent int the world - it was a great move.

Three years later, it appears far less likely that Hamilton will ever become the all-around defenseman that he hoped for when he acquired him. Even more concerning, he may even be someone you 'can't win with as a key player'. While that's overly harsh IMO, there is definitely some concern about his compete level in the defensive zone. So he moved him. Again, exactly what I would want my GM to do. He didn't panic after a bad year - he gave him 3 seasons. Again, the right way to go about it.

And despite these shortcomings in Hamilton's game, he managed to trade him for yet another 21 year old defenseman with all the talent in the world.

How is any of this a bad thing?