Francis with Kerr: Who is going?

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

this is a good point! Who's team is this?

The ducks are Getlaf's team. The preds are Josi/Subban's team. The penguins are Crosby's team. The hawks are Toew's team. The Bruins are Bergeron's team. The leafs are babcock's team. The Lightening are Stamkos's team. The Kings are Kopitar's team.

Who's team is this?

Gio but is it possible he has hard time leading the younger part of the core? Freaking millenials!

Long-term (and not too long away): Tkachuk.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Locke

I get what you're saying but you are rarely going to replace a superstar's production.

I don't want to replace a superstars production in trading Gaudreau (or at least the idea of), I want far greater balance struck within the whole team. Lets face it, once Tkachuk went down the scoring dried up on the 3M line and killed all momentum. Monahan goes down and Gaudreau goes pointless for a stretch.

Reality is the Flames only had three legit players who were a threat. If you can even go 2 for 1 on a gaudreau trade and spread out what he was in on offensively say %20 to the second line, then the team will be better overall.

Now next season there's going to be a bit of a boost internally with another evolution from Janko and perhaps Foo coming in for another good net front guy like chucky. But I still think theres more that needs to be done.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Locke

I get what you're saying but you are rarely going to replace a superstar's production.

Johnny is the straw that stirs this drink. If you thought our powerplay was bad before....

There are teams in the NHL that would overpay like crazy because Johnny in a Phillie, Buffalo, or Jersey sweater would put bums in seats and sell lots of merch.

Johnny is not the problem, but he might be solution beyond just being in our roster.

[dino7c]

Trading JG before finding him a quality right winger would be ridiculous. Guy puts up 84 points with 3rd liners on the opposite wing. Everytime he goes to a tournament and plays with high end guys he absolutely dominates. We could easily have a 100 point player with a 6M cap hit.

Keep him and upgrade by trading D...it's so ####ing obvious

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Sure but clearly he has excelled in Pittsburgh because he isn't "The Man".
Do you disagree? What makes Johnny different from Phil?

The fact Kessel is more like Monahan (a pure sniper) and Guadreau is one of the most cerebral players in the league. So in that way, it's a poor comparison.
Kessel can't be relied on because he's a one dimensional winger. He's a pure sniper.

I think the trouble you're running into, even now revising your thought isn't so much that you can't win with Johny as your best player, it's that you can't win relying on him to shoulder so much of the offensive load himself.

Should we get more out of Monahan, add another top line player (to fill that RW spot), have Tkachuck develop into a Corey Perry... we can definitely win with Guadreau being our highest scoring player when there's more support by committee.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by dino7c

And the Flyers are a perennial bubble team lol

But both of those trades were absolute home runs

Carter gets them Voracek who was 80pts and Couturier who was over 70pts
Richards got them Schenn who is a 70pt player (Blues Philly has the Blues lottery pick this draft and a 1st last year) and Simmonds who is a solid 20-30 goal guy.

They would do those trades again every day but you are right this deals happened 7 years ago and the Flyers have nothing to show for it except 3 of 4 of the players acquired are key players in their lineup

[I_H8_Crawford]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Right. Because all we would get is rusty hubcaps. Yeah, that’s what people are saying. Good take.

To be fair, that is what we have seen this franchise return for players like Gilmour, Phaneuf, Iginla, Bouwmeester.

[robbie111]

I think Gaudreau, Giordano and Tkachuk hate to lose. You win with those players.

Bennett has always looked like a guy who pouts when he isn't putting up points. Backlund doesn't seem to hate losing and I could see him getting traded while his value is high as he dropped off the face of the earth when Tkachuk got hurt.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

I think the trouble you're running into, even now revising your thought isn't so much that you can't win with Johny as your best player, it's that you can't win relying on him to shoulder so much of the offensive load himself.

No that's not my point. My point is that I don't think he's a good enough all around player to be our top forward.
So the question is do you have someone in the pipeline that WILL be that, can you win without it? If the answer to the first is NO and the answer to the second is also NO you have to figure out how to solve that.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Know thyself.

Gaudreau is a Kane, a Kessel, a Panarin, a Fleury, a Kariya. Not guys who lead the charge, but guys who play the role of pure raw talent. You need them because they break games open, not because they can play a complete game.

However, you also need a Toews, a Francis, an Sakic...guys who can play a complete game, and lead the way in a more traditional sense. I'm not sure we really have that right now.

Damn it Bennett, this should've been you!

This is also why we need a general for a coach. We lack leadership in the locker room and thus need it behind the bench.

These are my sentiments as well.

Gaudreau isn't the elite 2 way C, but he is definitely one of the key pieces you need to build a winner.

We still need that elite C. Can Monahan be that? Maybe, but I would be much more willing to make a trade involving Manahan, than involving Gaudreau.

We were sure that, between Monahan and Bennett, we had our 1-2 punch at C. So far, that isn't the case, and doesn't look like it is going to be. Which leads me to...

While I am not keen on trading any of the young core, if I did, I would start with Hamilton. Not because I dislike his play or think he isn't motivated, but for the following two reasons:

1) he is the asset that could get us a top level C (and we need another one)
2) we have way more top prospects at D than at any other position

I think the most important thing is a new coaching staff that can motivate and properly utilize the players and the type of talent that they have. But if we're going to mix it up with a trade of a core player, I look to trade Hamilton for a #1 C. Then I look to sign a winger.

Then I hope to God that 1 or 2 of the D prospects take a big leap forward.

[jg13]

Absolutely crazy seeing people suggesting we trade Gaudreau. In a year where everything went wrong, he was one of the few bright spots.

[wretched34]

Since Monahan entered the league, he has the 7th most goals of all centers, behind Seguin, Crosby, Pavelski, Tavares, Malkin and Stamkos. All of whom had at least 3 full NHL seasons under their belts before Monahan entered the league.
Monahan has the 2nd most game winning goals in that time frame, behind only Brayden Schenn, and the most OT goals.

All the talk about Gaudreau needing a better center is crazy. Would Tavares be better? Probably, but is it worth the $4M raise?
At times over the last couple seasons, the Flames top line has been one of the most productive in the NHL for extended periods of time. That's not thanks to Ferland, or Brouwer, or Hudler, or any of the other revolving wingers on the right side. It is 100% the combined play of Monahan and Gaudreau. The chemistry they have is undeniable.

I also don't believe Monahan is one of the players Francis is talking about. From everything fans hear, Monahan is a leader, and possibly the next captain of the Flames, and already wears a letter. Just because he doesn't loose his mind or get overly emotional in the media doesn't mean the guy doesn't care. It's well known that he's played through significant injuries, not just this season, but previous ones as well, that doesn't sounds like a guy who only cares about himself.

To me, if there is any truth to what Francis says, the only person I truly believe didn't care about winning or losing in the dressing room was Gulutzan. He just cared about doing it his way.
In turn, there were a few players that were utilized poorly, such as Ferland and Bennett, who were put in positions to fail, so I could see how Francis would say they were playing selfishly.
What was Ferland supposed to do, when Gulutzan wanted him to be a 30 goal scorer? He can't be the wrecking ball that got him to where he is and spend time in the penalty box if he needs to be scoring.
Bennett had the same issue, except he was expected to put up points, while being saddled with under achievers most of the time, so the only thing he could do, is play selfishly.

If there are going to be trades this off season, Ferland, Brodie, Frolik and Brouwer are the guys I'm trying to move. Though I would hate to see Ferland go before getting a chance in a new system, he holds decent value, same goes for Brodie. Brouwer being dealt is just a wish, and a pipe dream.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Well there's some definite Hyperbole going on surrounding the defense of Gaudreau.

Who the hell is calling him a talentless loser? No one. Thats who.

So one side is completely closed minded about trading Gaudreau, thats fine.

While other are at least trying to converse about the idea. I honestly have not seen ANYONE actively wishing to trade Gaudreau. Just open to the idea.

Good thing you avoided using hyperbole in your attack of those you think are displaying it (i.e. people with a different opinion than you).

[SportsJunky]

I'd love to see Bennett embrace more of a hard-nosed role on the team. He's a tough little bugger, we've all seen that. I think he could become a real problem for other teams if he evolved into a physical type guy who plays an honest game and makes the other teams answer for chippy play. I think he could carve out a long career for himself as a banger who can contribute with points when needed.

[mrdonkey]

Unfortunately I think Bennett being a bust/disappointment at 4OA (and yes, I think we can finally call a spade a spade here) has really set this franchise back a long way. Having that one extra game-breaking, all-around kind of talent may have been the missing ingredient in this equation.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

The closest situation this reminds me of is Philly years ago deciding they couldn't win with Carter and Richards. So they dealt them both and did well in that deal (Voracek and Simmonds) though it is worth noting the Kings DID win particularly with Carter.

But that's the type of chemistry change type of deal I think we are speculating on here. They are rare though.

Except - ironically - the Kings won with those guys and Philly never won with the return they got for them.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Good thing you avoided using hyperbole in your attack of those you think are displaying it (i.e. people with a different opinion than you).

Im not using Hyperbole at. One poster verbatim said Talentless loser in defense of not trading Gaudreau.

And how is it Hyperbole saying that one group is very clearly opposed to trading Gaudreau i.e closed minded?

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

No that's not my point. My point is that I don't think he's a good enough all around player to be our top forward.
So the question is do you have someone in the pipeline that WILL be that, can you win without it? If the answer to the first is NO and the answer to the second is also NO you have to figure out how to solve that.

Well I disagree with that.

There are very few point-a-game players in the NHL and he's one of them.

If we have more scoring by committee, I think this team can win with him as the leading point-getter. Again, we go back to Kane leading the offensive charge on that Hawks team which you correctly pointed out also worked because of Towes, Keith etc.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Im not using Hyperbole at. One poster verbatim said Talentless loser in defense of not trading Gaudreau.

And how is it Hyperbole saying that one group is very clearly opposed to trading Gaudreau i.e closed minded?

My issue is you were quick to point out "hey no one is actively saying to trade Gaudreau" while pretty much doing just that. You're starting to beat a drum about it.

[flames_fan_down_under]

Trading Gaudreau would set the limited progress this club has made back even further and would cement this team as a perennial bottom feeder.

This team needs more skill, not less! I can’t imagine how awful this team would be without Gaudreau, especially with BT orchestrating such a deal.

I remember people saying you don’t win with Taylor Hall, bad attitude, in it for himself etc etc now he is being considered for the MVP. Same with Phil Kessel.