[PGT] Leafs 4 Flames 1

[memphusk]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Rough night for ferland, can't clear the puck and then it's his man who scores later in the shift as he's in no man's land. Backbreaking

Any news on Bennett?

Word is he didn't do anything this month, hoping for better things next month.

So he's month to month.

[bubbsy]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

And it's a serious lol that we're paying Brouwer $4.5. Treliving should be ashamed. I said day 1 of this signing that it would be terrible.

It's looking like Brouwer signing and the hamonic trades are major miscalculations by the flames gm over the past 2 offseasons.

I think hamonic could be better still though, hopefully.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Psytic

Im just curious what you feel is the issue with the team?
Do you feel that they are playing to potential and GG is getting the best of out this group?

Either this group isn't as good as it looks on paper, and no other coach can change it = on the GM. Or, they are better than this and the coach isn't getting the best out of them.

they are 3 games over .500 and I think they have some big holes in the bottom 6

GG is an average coach...Flames didn't lose this game because of coaching, the Leafs players played better. They likely win if I was behind the Leafs bench tonight.

[Tinordi]

Yeah the leafs are a good, budding on great, team. No shame losing to them. Their rebuild worked out better. They hit their top picks and plucked some key guys later in the draft. Essentially they were luckier than the Flames.

It's going to be a long five years for Leaf haters. Most of the pieces are all there to be a contender.

[Beninho]

Does anyone know what Hamonic does better than Stone? Maybe skating I guess. Stone is bigger, more physical, and can give you something offensively with his great shot. I didn't understand the Hamonic trade because the Flames already had a no.4 guy in Stone. The Hamonic trade is really starting to irk me because this team could've taken that next step if they used those draft picks correctly. That being by trading for a legit top 6 player. A first and the 3 seconds from the Lazar and Hamonic deal would've done that without a doubt.

[Flash Walken]

Stone is somewhat of an insurance policy on hamonic, but I also wonder if he was retained for the flexibility it gives the flames to make a trade.

For me, Brodie is the odd man out on the roster. Just too unreliable defensively.

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Matthews didn't have a shot for the first time in his career

suck it Leafs!

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Yeah the leafs are a good, budding on great, team. No shame losing to them. Their rebuild worked out better. They hit their top picks and plucked some key guys later in the draft. Essentially they were luckier than the Flames.

It's going to be a long five years for Leaf haters. Most of the pieces are all there to be a contender.

I disagree, the Flames have hit on many young players and have a better defense. It's up to management to figure out a way to get the best out of this group. That's something Toronto has done and the Flames have not. It's very easy to see which team is a Babcock coached team and which team is a GG one.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by dino7c

they are 3 games over .500 and I think they have some big holes in the bottom 6

GG is an average coach...Flames didn't lose this game because of coaching, the Leafs players played better. They likely win if I was behind the Leafs bench tonight.

The WAR for coaches is so so small. I know advanced metrics in hockey are still in development but an elite forward/goalie is a 4, defenceman is a 3, what do you think an NHL coach is, maybe 3? There's no coach that is worth Erik Karlsson. The way people are talking today Gulutzan is responsible for 9 of our losses. That's basically impossible.

GG has probably a WAR of 1.5, Babcok is a 3.3.5

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Beninho

Does anyone know what Hamonic does better than Stone? Maybe skating I guess. Stone is bigger, more physical, and can give you something offensively with his great shot. I didn't understand the Hamonic trade because the Flames already had a no.4 guy in Stone. The Hamonic trade is really starting to irk me because this team could've taken that next step if they used those draft picks correctly. That being by trading for a legit top 6 player. A first and the 3 seconds from the Lazar and Hamonic deal would've done that without a doubt.

You have said this like 50 times tonight

Hamonic is certainly still a more valuable asset now...I think it will take more than 20 games to make the call

Also, Stone was a UFA when the deal was done so Stone was still an unknown

[taxbuster]

I've been on the fence about the coaching, but I've come to the regrettable conclusion that almost the entire coaching staff is a mess of disorganized plans, poor anticipation and a complete lack of fresh ideas. And far too often they are asleep for the first 40 minutes of a game - that's on the coaches, too.

The D wail around in their end with no structure, plan or method when they get pinned - they simply panic and race around aimlessly. Every once in a while they remember to hit someone or get their sticks moving, but they are s-o-f-t. Hamilton has become VERY lazy. He waits for the puck FAR too often, and makes lazy stick plays on incoming forwards. That is on bad coaching, as he does it regularly, so must be being told to do so - it's not going to stop anyone talented or an organized attack.

In the other end, the PP, without Versteeg the last two games has no idea what to do. They can't make a breakout work, can't cross the blue line effectively to gain the zone -- and once again, that's gotta be on execution after coaching.

And the Greasers are only 5 points behind.

It would seem odd to toast coaches at this point in the season, with the Flames still "doing well" in the standings. But maybe if the team "wants" to do better, that's the answer.

Beats me why these guys can't get it together. Too highbrow a plan for a bunch of hockey players?

[dammage79]

Second line and down there's issues. Backlunds line should be the third line. Bennett and Lazar flatlining has left a huge gap in scoring and we don't have the replacement parts to fix the problem. Janko looks good but appears to need some better linemates(yeah Jagr is there but I have a feeling he's going to miss a bunch of games).

The fourth line even with Versteeg is not good. Hamilton and Stajan aren't the answer. And Brouwer is serving one purpose but not worth his contract.

Treliving went all in on the D corps and I think it's kind of backfiring. Really think Hamonic should be the third pairing RHD and anchoring defensively someone like Kylington. Stone and Brodie have shown much better chemistry and I don't know why the coaching staff isn't matching successful pairings instead of trying to make a square peg go into a round hole.

There's a few serious issues that need fixing with the Flames for sure, you can see the parts are there, they just need to adjust the settings.

[Karl]

Familton 15.4%, Lazar 18.8% and Stajan 20% Corsi.

That is just plain unplayable dog crap.

Stajan is done and Freddie & Lazar are no good too.

No serviceable 4th line centres anymore, and not even much better with 4th liners Versteeg & Brouwer either.

Entire group of 4th liners on the Flames flat out and straight up suck. No good.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

The WAR for coaches is so so small. I know advanced metrics in hockey are still in development but an elite forward/goalie is a 4, defenceman is a 3, what do you think an NHL coach is, maybe 3? There's no coach that is worth Erik Karlsson. The way people are talking today Gulutzan is responsible for 9 of our losses. That's basically impossible.

GG has probably a WAR of 1.5, Babcok is a 3.3.5

Babcok has been a good coach in his career when he has had good players...like most coaches

When the Wings were on the decline he hit the road

When he had #### talent he finished DEAD LAST

[Beninho]

Originally Posted by dino7c

You have said this like 50 times tonight

Hamonic is certainly still a more valuable asset now...I think it will take more than 20 games to make the call

I've said it maybe 4 times because I believe this was a massive #### up by Treliving. I doubt any team is clammoring to get Hamonic if they have properly scouted the Flames. At this point Treliving has a lot of big wins and a lot of big misses. This Hamonic trade will go down along the lines of Brouwer if he does not pick up his play drastically. A first and two seconds can not be understated, that's a humongous payment for a player that looks so painfully average. The Isles worked the Flames big time for a player that was already showing regression last season. Sorry that I'm extremely annoyed that this team had the assets to take the next step but used them improperly.

[dino7c]

Far worse players than Hamonic have fetched first round picks

I also think he will improve, 21 games

[Flash Walken]

Lazar for a second should probably be a scandal at this point.

Looking like Reto Bera for a 2nd levels of bad.

Does anyone know what his advanced stats are like? Because 2 points in 17 games and a -5 with 14 shots is bad. Feel for the guy but he should be in the minors.

[Calgary4LIfe]

The Flames didn't lose this game because of 'bounces'. Every single goal that the Leafs scored was earned - lucky bounce or not - because the worked hard for them. The Flames didn't. Sure, it sucks when your team works hard and doesn't get those bounces, but when I see a team working hard and they get the bounces, that's how it should be.

Flames didn't come close to matching the intensity that Toronto brought. They weren't outclassed in skill. Tough to say if they were outclassed in system/in-game coaching. What I saw was a lack of compete from the Flames.

What was really sad about it was the lack of a response. I really expected a big push-back in the 2nd. Didn't happen. I expected a really big push in the third. Surprised to see them coming out flat again. When the goalie got pulled, I said out-loud "there is no way that they won't score" - and I was not talking about the Flames.

I am not on the fire Gulutzan band-wagon, but I am also starting to get this sense that he doesn't really have much in the way of answers at the moment. I get the sense that - like Hartley - he has taken the Flames as far as he can. Hopefully I am wrong.

I just see too many games now where the Flames are coming out flat, only the top line is producing, and the defence mostly looks scatter-brained out there. Smith is covering up a lot of warts.

Flames just came from a game in which they looked good all over the place. There's that. This team needs to figure itself out.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Babcok has been a good coach in his career when he has had good players...like most coaches

When the Wings were on the decline he hit the road

When he had #### talent he finished DEAD LAST

Suppose Mike Babcock coached this team, any improvement?

[dammage79]

Didn't like the Hamonic trade either. But he is serviceable. Just on the third pairing with a younger D man he can cover.
The Brodie Hamonic pairing hasnt earned a passing grade at all. And I don't think they're meant to be paired.

Stone should be with Brodie. They looked great during their time and it was far more natural of a fit from the get go.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Babcok has been a good coach in his career when he has had good players...like most coaches

When the Wings were on the decline he hit the road

When he had #### talent he finished DEAD LAST

Right, you probably had players on that team with negative WAR. I'm agreeing with you. Take the best team in the NHL, have them coach Dallas Eakins v. Babock (or Torts or whoever is the best in the NHL right now).

The team with Eakins will probably have 3 less wins than the team with Babock. That's it. So this idea of blaming GG after every loss is insane. He, at worst, will cost this team 2 wins over the course of the 82 game season. If you need ~43 wins to make the playoffs, GG is probably only responsible for getting them 1.5 The other 35-40 need to come from 23 guys on the roster.