Man charged after ‘multiple sexual assaults’ at West Edmonton Mall waterpark

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

Your judging the actions of a few and painting millions of men with the same brush. Im not denying there aren't perverts/pigs who harass and assault women in the Middle East but it's no more than what happens in the western world where rape and sexual assault/harassment is common.

So it's your assertion that no culture or country is any more misogynist or unpleasant for women than any other?

Then how do we ever achieve progress? Is Canada today really no better than Canada 50 or 100 years ago? And if it is better, doesn't in stand to reason that cultures that still have attitudes like Canada had 50 or 100 years ago are worse than Canada today?

I've already stated that we would have problems integrating Canadians from 50 or 100 years ago if they immigrated via time machine because of different social values back then. Is that a discriminatory or unfair statement?

You're from Lebanon. Surely you're aware that it's probably the most liberal county in the region (besides Israel). And I'm sure secular Turkish women today would be gratified to learn that the takeover of their country by conservative, religious men is just part of the rich pageant of history, and not a threat to their liberty at all.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by nik-

You're pretty much agreeing with the overarching point of a lot of the arguments in here in order to counter one portion of one of my posts. So yes, we agree. Strangle those movements in the crib.



Climate versus weather. No one said it was perfect, but to try and make them equal or say "it's just semantics" is patently dishonest.

I'm still not sure what your point was. Bad ideas are bad? Yeah of course I agree. I just don't see the difference in our ability to quell the uprising of silly societal views like those found in evangelical and Mormon Christianity vs those found in Islam. I don't find Muslim beliefs particularly scary when considering some plenty scary beliefs that we already manage.

[AltaGuy]

In the sixties and seventies in many middle eastern cultures, women were much more free, and the hold fundamentalism had over the populations was far less. In Lebanon, Sunni, Shia, and Christian families often intermarried. Atheism was much more prevalent and there were lots of people who associated with socialism and communism.

Dumbing down what is an incredibly complicated historical context into "Islam is bad and they've always been brutes" is silly. The Shah happened, and then the revolution. Israel/Palestine continues to be a powderkeg. The Iran-Iraq war happened, then two gulf wars. The Lebanese civil war lasted over twenty years and drew in almost every outside force imaginable. The Syrian civil war has killed upwards of 400,000 people and displaced millions.

We are far removed and don't have good information about the middle east. Imagine trying to figure out the world around you with psycho imams, propaganda from dictators, and spies of every kind in your every day life.

It's an incredibly complicated place, and Islam's various incarnations reflect that insanely complicated and violent recent history. I make no apologies for brutal medieval practices, but the immediate historical context cannot be ignored, and nor should the often stupid and sometimes malicious role the West has played in that region.

Three years ago, an interracial couple I know was jeered by a group of idiots in Drumheller of all places. Holding hands with a gay partner will garner much of the same in rural Alberta to this day.

We aren't quite so enlightened as we'd like to imagine in my opinion.

[pepper24]

If the suspect has 6 children I would hope they are checking into his childrens welfare as well. Good chance most of us kids are under 16 years as well based on his age. Beyond the 6 girls at the waterpark we could be looking at more victims.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It's not religious, it's cultural. There are cultures that are decades or even centuries behind Canada in the treatment of women. It baffles me why that's considered a controversial observation.

Have you ever been to a country in the Middle East or North Africa? Outside a few tourist sites or liberal enclaves, a Western woman will be routinely creeped by local men. Oggled. Leered at. Manueovered into positions so men can look up their skirt. Often groped. In many conservative cultures around the world, Western women are considered shameless sluts. Their revealing clothes. The fact they go out in the presence of single men without a chaperone or family member. A drunk woman is regarded as little more than a prostitute.

Of course there will be problems when men raised in cultures like that encounter our progressive liberality. In countries like Germany and Denmark it isn't unusual for women to sunbath in public parks wearing bras, or go topless at beaches. That's changing. Today, women report being uncomfortable going partially clothed in public because of the leering or dirty looks from men recently arrived from much more conservative cultures.

The clash of civilization narrative is alarmist nonsense. The Islamic world isn't at war with the West for the future of the world. But there is very much a clash of cultures where the extraordinarily liberal cultures of the West come into contact with far more traditional and misogynist cultures from other parts of the world. It's wilfully naive to pretend otherwise.

And my argument is this guy sexual assaulting women didn't do it because he thought it was okay thing to do at a water park. He did it because he is a predator.

I can understand that we won't get rid of the niqab overnight and banning it would just make things worse. That is cultural. Grabbing girls st a water park is not. Even if he believed that grabbing girls in a water park is a socially acceptable thing to do in Syria (and that is grossly insulting to Syrians) wouldn't he look around and think why is no one else assaulting these girls and take a second thought.

The guy presuming he is convicted is a predator and if he tries to use culture as an excuse he is no different than teachers or priests using their positions to cover up their assaults

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

And my argument is this guy sexual assaulting women didn't do it because he thought it was okay thing to do at a water park. He did it because he is a predator.

I can understand that we won't get rid of the niqab overnight and banning it would just make things worse. That is cultural. Grabbing girls st a water park is not. Even if he believed that grabbing girls in a water park is a socially acceptable thing to do in Syria (and that is grossly insulting to Syrians) wouldn't he look around and think why is no one else assaulting these girls and take a second thought.

You realize that here in Canada, groping teenage girls at a pool wasn't considered a serious crime a few decades ago, right? And that women were typically deterred from making a big deal out of these sorts of 'minor' matters, and they were usually dealt with informally?

Heck, I can remember a regular series in Cracked Magazine where a 13-year-old student reporter was portrayed as a sexual bombshell, a figure like Pamela Anderson, with huge boobs bursting through her tops. The premise of the series was sleazy adult men comically falling all over themselves trying to seduce her while she obliviously conducted her interviews wearing tiny shorts, paddling in a swimming pool, etc. This was considered light-hearted humour in 1980 or so.

The past is a foreign country - they do things differently there. In matters of predation against women, we are making progress from a pretty awful past to a better present. I assumed this was commonly knowledge.

Do you believe we in Canada have made progress when it comes to the treatment of women (and children, while we're at it)?

If yes, do you believe all cultures in the world have made the same progress at the same rate?

Yes, the guy who did this is a predator. But cultures vary tremendously over how seriously they regard different kinds of predation, and in the punishments men can expect to incur for them. And I hope it goes without saying that in no way minimizes what he did. It means we need to be aware of that the more men from misogynist cultures come to Canada, the more misogynistic acts we're likely to see.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You realize that here in Canada, groping teenage girls at a pool wasn't considered a serious crime a few decades ago, right? And that women were typically deterred from making a big deal out of these sorts of 'minor' matters, and they were usually dealt with informally?

Heck, I can remember a regular series in Cracked Magazine where a 13-year-old student reporter was portrayed as a sexual bombshell, a figure like Pamela Anderson, with huge boobs bursting through her tops. The premise of the series was sleazy adult men comically falling all over themselves trying to seduce her while she obliviously conducted her interviews wearing tiny shorts, paddling in a swimming pool, etc. This was considered light-hearted humour in 1980 or so.

The past is a foreign country - they do things differently there. In matters of predation against women, we are making progress from a pretty awful past to a better present. I assumed this was commonly knowledge.

Do you believe we in Canada have made progress when it comes to the treatment of women (and children, while we're at it)?

If yes, do you believe all cultures in the world have made the same progress at the same rate?

Yes, the guy who did this is a predator. But cultures vary tremendously over how seriously they regard different kinds of predation, and in the punishments men can expect to incur for them.

And while I agree with what you said none of that changes my belief or adds any contrary evidence that this guy knew what he was doing was illegal and they you blaming Syrian culture is insulting to law abiding Syrians. Do you have any evidence that the rate of sexual assault being perpetrated by Syrian refugees is higher than the general?pop.

In 2011/2012 1600 men were convicted of sexual assault 15,000 reports of assault were made to police. If you assume a unique perpetrator(which likely isn't correct). Thats 1/20000 convicted and 1/2000 accused. So far reports of Syrian refugees committing assaults reported to the polic appear to fall into roughly the same statistical ball park given the limited sample size.

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.thes...?client=safari