Alberta Newspaper Says It Fat Shamed Health Minister By 'Mistake'

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by GGG

I would agree that obesity is a health concern. The questions becomes whether shaming is an effective way of fighting it. The success rate of people losing and keeping off weight is abysmal. We know there is a psychological / depression aspect in many people's issues.

The question we should be asking is what is the most effective way to get people to lose and keep off weight. If shaming people and having fit health ministers turns out to be the most effective way then sign me up. I suspect that isn't the case.

People need to be educated on weight loss, plain and simple. So many people underestimate their caloric intake and daily requirements. They overestimate the amount of calories burned by their activities. And people lack the motivation or willpower to change their lifestyle, which is the key to losing weight, getting fit and staying that way.

The other problem is we have fools like Virgie Tovar, Ragan Chastain and their legions of Tumblr/FA/HAES followers who are basically trying to normalize obesity and mental illness. They have gotten so many people believing that it is offensive to point out when someone is sick that a lot of people are not willing to do so or have no idea what it looks like.

More places that sell food need to follow the example that McDonalds has taken. Caloric information on the menu board, right next to the food item and in large print. People need to be looking at their BMI, TDEE and their actual caloric intake every day. It sucks the first time you take a hard look at yourself, but the benefits long term outweigh the initial discomfort.

[GGG]

http://www.slate.com/articles/health...healthier.html

Its slate so some inherent bias and the article is written with an agenda but it links some excellent peer-reviewed research that questions the underlying assumption that obesity is inherently bad and skinniness is inherently good.

I think people accept without sufficient evidence that obesity CAUSES rather than correlates with diseases and that weight loss will reduce the risk of these diseases in people who were previously obese.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

People need to be educated on weight loss, plain and simple. So many people underestimate their caloric intake and daily requirements. They overestimate the amount of calories burned by their activities. And people lack the motivation or willpower to change their lifestyle, which is the key to losing weight, getting fit and staying that way.

So much this.

Big Mac combo at McDonald's:

Big Mac: 520 calories
Large Fries: 560 calories - 600 with ketchup
Large Pop: 330 calories

It's 1450 calories, if they refill their pop they've just reached their daily calorie goal in a single mean. But the amount of people who think that's a normal lunch, and have a hefty breakfast and dinner on top of it are way to frequent.

And then they may 'run' on a treadmill for half an hour and think they've burned off that meal when they might have burned off the 330 calories from the single drink.

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by GGG

http://www.slate.com/articles/health...healthier.html

Its slate so some inherent bias and the article is written with an agenda but it links some excellent peer-reviewed research that questions the underlying assumption that obesity is inherently bad and skinniness is inherently good.

I think people accept without sufficient evidence that obesity CAUSES rather than correlates with diseases and that weight loss will reduce the risk of these diseases in people who were previously obese.

They are correct when they say so many people fail at dieting. And it's because after they go on their crash diets, they go right back to their old eating habits. Weight loss isn't just reducing the amount of food you eat for a while until you drop 10 pounds, it is a lifestyle change that has to be maintained and changing a lot of flawed thinking.

[photon]

If it was as easy as a lifestyle change (which itself isn't easy), then more people would be successful at it. But it isn't.

It's correct that people need to be educated on weight, but they need to be educated on it PRIOR to weight gain. Weight gain needs to be viewed less like a cold (something you can recover from) and more like Ebola (you might get better from Ebola but probably not). Currently prevention is the only cure for obesity.

Gastric surgery is the only method that has a long term success rate of more than single digit percentage points.

[belsarius]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

So much this.

Big Mac combo at McDonald's:

Big Mac: 520 calories
Large Fries: 560 calories - 600 with ketchup
Large Pop: 330 calories

It's 1450 calories, if they refill their pop they've just reached their daily calorie goal in a single mean. But the amount of people who think that's a normal lunch, and have a hefty breakfast and dinner on top of it are way to frequent.

And then they may 'run' on a treadmill for half an hour and think they've burned off that meal when they might have burned off the 330 calories from the single drink.

Absolutely, and it makes our population unhealthy, unproductive and a severe drain on government spending. It's funny that you can't show someone having a drink on a TV commercial, you can't advertising smoking, but every break I see another way to poison myself with fast food and how "it's the best!". Kills thousands of people a year but lets continue to allow marketing for it. I find it hard to blame people when it's constant media assaults and ####ty "food" loaded with addictiveness.

That being said, shaming, be it fat shaming, smoking shaming, drug shaming, etc. just doesn't work. It won't change people and usually just pushes them farther into their addiction. As grown-ups we really need to stop thinking that putting people down is a mature way to deal with them.

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by photon

Gastric surgery is the only method that has a long term success rate of more than single digit percentage points.

Education is the key to this I think. Lots of people (and I'm guilty of this too), are simply uninformed or just think completely incorrectly about food.

I would do the "I walked a lot today, so I can have this slab of cake for dessert" or "I worked out at the gym for an hour, so I'll have McDonalds for dinner". I also greatly underestimated the caloric value of the foods I was eating and ate simply because of whatever activity I was doing. Having a large pop and a slice or two of pizza at the movies was normal for me, or having a bunch of chips while I watched TV. What I was failing to realize was that the chips were 1000 calories and the pop/pizza combo was close to 1500.

Not going to lie, changing is hard as ####. This last try is probably the third or forth time I've resolved to eat better and lose weight. Changing years or ingrained behaviors and thinking is not easy for anyone. My biggest issue is with the apparent normalization of poor activities and not with the people who are struggling with them.

[Muta]

I don't care what the health minister looks like, as long as that's the smartest and most effective person for the job. They could be a blob of plasma for all I care, as long as they're making the right decisions. Being skinny doesn't mean you're qualified. Otherwise, we'd just hire some roided-up, Affliction-wearing d#uchebag off the street because you know... muscles.

Carolyn Bennett, our Minister of Indigenous and Northern Affairs, isn't an indigenous person. Guess she's not qualified for that job, right?

[Cube Inmate]

Random thoughts...all just opinions and perceptions.

Sorry for the long post. I came in here thinking "oversensitive weenies!" and just managed to talk myself into the opposite position. So...I'm posting it as a reminder to myself to judge less and ask more questions.

I believe people can get addicted to crappy food. It seems that it's most similar to other behavioural addictions, like gambling, sex, compulsive shopping, etc., as opposed to external chemical addictions like smoking, drinking. Because we see one as a "choice" and the other as a "chemical dependency," I think they're treated differently in terms of stigma. We look to treat "real" addicts whereas we simply look to shame these other people for their poor choices.

But I'm no expert, so I don't know about "food addiction." I just keep hearing that it's a real thing.

Here's another big twist: Of all the possible "addictions" out there, eating is the only one that a person can't actually abstain from. I honestly have no idea where it might cross the line from "choice" into "addiction" territory...but because one can't actually abstain from food, I have a hard time identifying the point where someone's gone from "flawed human" to "morally reprehensible."

Let's say you think "fat shaming" is OK because these people need to realize the error of their ways. How do you tell the difference between a 300-going-on-200-pounder and a 300-going-on-400-pounder? While the people might look identical to you, one is clearly making "good" choices and the other is not. So, back in reality, can anybody tell me the changes in Sarah Hoffman's weight since she came into the public eye? Yeah, she's obese...but is she obese and getting healthier or obese and getting worse?

And to someone who asked if we'd want an alcoholic running MADD... I say why not? Someone who's aware of his/her condition; who takes action to deal with it; who commits to staying off the road while impaired. Frankly, I think that'd be more effective as "messaging" than having a teetotaller in the position. MADD isn't about drinking...it's about DUI. The Health Ministry isn't about ensuring 100% of people are 100% healthy...it's about managing health problems (including with prevention) through good choices.

[photon]

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

Education is the key to this I think. Lots of people (and I'm guilty of this too), are simply uninformed or just think completely incorrectly about food.

Education is important, but it's not a solution. If it was then success rates and positive outcomes would correlate to education, but the success rates of people who are given the absolute best possible chance of success (they're provided with a full support network of nutritionists, doctors, psychologists, fitness, education etc) still have a success rate of like 5% for long term weight loss.

And every time someone has some success the body further sabotages any future progress. Education might help those cases so that people go in that their first try should be done right as a lifestyle change and that be their last try because unlike quitting smoking, it will get much harder each time one tries and fails.

It doesn't help that people have a poor understanding of food, but I think the real benefit of such an understanding would be in prevention and limiting damage.. but that's tough because people don't care about education when they don't feel like they're in trouble. Once the damage is done education would be part of staying as healthy as possible but rarely will be the a solution.

Originally Posted by llwhiteoutll

My biggest issue is with the apparent normalization of poor activities and not with the people who are struggling with them.

Maybe, but is it normalization or is it just an attempt to stop shaming and discrimination? When one is mocked and reviled and discriminated against and has almost no hope of changing I would almost kind of expect the reaction to be an attempt at some level of normalization. Normalization not because one honestly wants to be obese and thinks it's a great choice, but normalization because one just wants not to be hated all the time. Just look at how people talk in this thread.

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by photon

It's correct that people need to be educated on weight, but they need to be educated on it PRIOR to weight gain.

That's why I think targeting children, and their parents is the most effective long-term solution. Once you become overweight, chances are good you'll be struggling with it for the rest of your life. It should never be about weight loss. It should be about good diet habits right from the start of your life.

Think of the children!

[Slava]

This talk of who should be Minister due to qualifications is mind numbing. The minister answers for the department on the floor of the legislature; and that's it. They aren't researching or conducting specialized projects, and the actual work is done by the Deputy Minister and below. It makes zero difference whether the person is healthy themselves, or has actual experience in the healthcare system. It make some people feel better, but in truth might or might not lead to actual better policy.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by pylon

Maybe, but is it normalization or is it just an attempt to stop shaming and discrimination? When one is mocked and reviled and discriminated against and has almost no hope of changing I would almost kind of expect the reaction to be an attempt at some level of normalization. Normalization not because one honestly wants to be obese and thinks it's a great choice, but normalization because one just wants not to be hated all the time. Just look at how people talk in this thread.

Promoting the idea that obesity is bad isn't so much about shaming obese people into losing weight, as it is about deterring people from getting overweight in the first place.

Obesity isn't randomly distributed among the population. It's often found in groups and subcultures where it has become normalized. In some of these environments skinny people are actually mocked and reviled, and join in the gluttony just to fit in.

[DiracSpike]

Obesity shouldn't be celebrated or normalized, but that was just a cheap shot by the newspaper. There's plenty to criticize the NDP over besides their picking a fat lady for health minister, mocking someone's personal apperance is the bottom of the barrell no matter what it is.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

I believe people can get addicted to crappy food. It seems that it's most similar to other behavioural addictions, like gambling, sex, compulsive shopping, etc., as opposed to external chemical addictions like smoking, drinking. Because we see one as a "choice" and the other as a "chemical dependency," I think they're treated differently in terms of stigma. We look to treat "real" addicts whereas we simply look to shame these other people for their poor choices.

But I'm no expert, so I don't know about "food addiction." I just keep hearing that it's a real thing.

On the addiction part, an interesting book is this one: https://www.amazon.ca/Salt-Sugar-Fat.../dp/0771057105

Our brains are wired through evolution to want salt, sugar, fat. Food companies spend enormous effort to tune their products to maximize consumption. They make Doritos not to taste the best, they specifically tune them so the taste is low enough it doesn't trigger the brain into saying "I've had lots" so people keep eating them (as just one example).

So even without food addiction (which I also don't know much about) many foods we don't make ourselves are optimized to maximize consumption (because that maximizes profits). It's like advertising, an individual may or may not respond to an ad, but in aggregate you can measure people responding. A person may be more or less susceptible to the drive to eat more salty, sweet, fatty foods but in aggregate you can impact consumption by altering the composition of the food.

And you're right, the fact that one can't just quit eating and avoid situations that lead to behaviours like they can with gambling or smoking or alcoholism is a factor too.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Table 5

That's why I think targeting children, and their parents is the most effective long-term solution. Once you become overweight, chances are good you'll be struggling with it for the rest of your life. It should never be about weight loss. It should be about good diet habits right from the start of your life.

Think of the children!

Definitely. I learned some of my poor habits from my parents and extended family. I've lost probably twice a typical person's weight over the years, my metabolism is so screwed up it doesn't know which way is up.

So I try and make sure that my kid eats healthy and doesn't get into the kind of relationship with food that I have.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Promoting the idea that obesity is bad isn't so much about shaming obese people into losing weight, as it is about deterring people from getting overweight in the first place.

Obesity isn't randomly distributed among the population. It's often found in groups and subcultures where it has become normalized. In some of these environments skinny people are actually mocked and reviled, and join in the gluttony just to fit in.

Is this true in today's society. Historicly it was a sign of weath, now its a sign of poverty.

From what I have read obesity correlates well with income.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GGG

Is this true in today's society. Historicly it was a sign of weath, now its a sign of poverty.

Yes. But among these low-income groups where obesity is common, skinny people are often reviled and mocked.

[llwhiteoutll]

Originally Posted by photon

Education is important, but it's not a solution. If it was then success rates and positive outcomes would correlate to education, but the success rates of people who are given the absolute best possible chance of success (they're provided with a full support network of nutritionists, doctors, psychologists, fitness, education etc) still have a success rate of like 5% for long term weight loss.

And every time someone has some success the body further sabotages any future progress. Education might help those cases so that people go in that their first try should be done right as a lifestyle change and that be their last try because unlike quitting smoking, it will get much harder each time one tries and fails.

It doesn't help that people have a poor understanding of food, but I think the real benefit of such an understanding would be in prevention and limiting damage.. but that's tough because people don't care about education when they don't feel like they're in trouble. Once the damage is done education would be part of staying as healthy as possible but rarely will be the a solution.

Do have links to the studies that show a 90%+ failure rate in people who changed their lifestyle?

And what exactly do you mean when you say that the body sabotages your success? If you mean that it requires less calories as you lose weight, that's not called sabotage. If someone fails to account for that, it's clear they are not changing their lifestyle.

[photon]

I don't have them handy anymore, I think the last time it was discussed was in one of Thor's threads about the show he was on. If I recall the one I'm thinking of followed 1000+ people long term that went through highly supported weight loss programs and long term (5 years I think it was) it was less than 5% that kept the weight off.

As far as sabotage, it's not that your body needs less calories when you lose weight, it's that your body can keep needing less calories after you regain the weight. Not as few as when the weigh was off, but not as many as before the diet. Carry that over a few major ups and downs, people can get to a point where maintaining a "normal" weight requires an absurdly low calorie count just to maintain.

The body wants to get back to the weight it was is how it is described to me by the program I'm in right now, so will set desires, hunger, etc to get there.

That's why many medical weight loss clinics don't focus on BMI or being skinny or what a typical weight is for age/height/body type, because they're not attainable for the vast majority of people. Instead they focus on cardiovascular health and goals oriented towards reducing risk or improving quality of life i.e. being able to walk a long distance and having a strong heart, losing and keeping 50lbs off instead of expecting 100lbs so that they can participate in some sports or play with their kids, getting high blood pressure / cholesterol / blood sugar under control, etc. Also trying to help with the mental side of not just why food is such a problem, but accepting achievable goals and being happy with yourself despite everyone around you looking down on you and telling you how awful you are.

EDIT: The Calgary Bariatric clinic recently stopped taking referrals and will stop offering services for people just doing the lifestyle changes. They say the research shows that success with surgery is significant where success without isn't.