[News] Flames Management Want to Create a "Black & Blue" Team

[Ashasx]

I don't see how Brodie isn't a "gritty" player.

If I could ice a defence of six Brodies, I would.

[Red]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

That's actually an accurate assessment if you've ever watched a Chicago Blackhawks and Calgary Flames game in your life without letting your imagination run wild about how good teams are the Anti-Flames.

/conversation

Of course, let's get personal.

Whatever, I hold the belief that the Flames need size and that the Hawks are plenty tough. The Flames management also thinks they need size and toughness.
But why should we listen to them when we have you to make a better assessment.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I think you are over-emphasizing 'big'. Size alone isn't the issue. It's how the team plays.

The Hawks are as tough to play against as pretty much any team.

Ok so we agree that the Hawks, who have won 2 cups in recent years, are not a physically big team.

What I'm really saying is that I'm sick of Burke talking about adding more size and ranting about how you have to have a big, heavy team to win in the West and that it's the only way. He is famous for saying "you can't teach size". It's simply not true, but lots of people take it as gospel.

I agree that the Flames need to play tougher and meaner. But drafting players like Smith and Kanzig is what scares the #### out of me when thinking of the future of this team, and it's the one thing I hate about Burke.

Like the post above ^, where he is lumping size and toughness in together. They should be viewed separately. Flames need to get tougher for sure - but adding size is usually at the expense of skill, and that's what I worry about.

[Stanley]

I'm all for it, with the right balance of skill. Makes 100% sense to me. I would love to see a Flames team that's much harder to play against.

Also the forecheck has to be much more assertive, and God knows special teams needs a drastic improvement.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

How are you proposing they get tougher?

No one - literally no one - is arguing that they need to draft a whole bunch of 6'6" tough guys.

The idea is to be tougher to play against as a team. That includes a lot of things: some grittier players, some stronger players, some tougher players.

It DOES NOT mean less talented players.

What does somebody like Toews do to be gritty than somebody like Monahan doesn't?

Kane does that Gaudreau doesn't?

[Clever_Iggy]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

If I could ice a defence of six Brodies, I would.

How would that defense compare to 6 Giordanos?

[GreenLantern2814]

The only player who takes a regular shift who plays with a physical edge is Engelland. That's a huge problem.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

What does somebody like Toews do to be gritty than somebody like Monahan doesn't?

Kane does that Gaudreau doesn't?

Monahan plays really soft. It's the biggest knock against him IMO. He's got less physical presence than Bouwmeester.

[FlamesAddiction]

The Hawks core is older and more experienced that the Flames core. A lot of the things that make the Hawks tough to play against comes from experience.

As someone else said, everyone wants a rebuild until they get one. Rebuilding typically means that you should prepare to be frustrated for at least the next 5 seasons.

Back to Burke's original statement, I hope it doesn't mean that they expect the new coach to force guys like Ferland onto the top line.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The Flames stand up for each other, except you watch all 82 games and every small instance where they don't is forefront in your opinion.

The Flames battle hard, except you watch all 82 games and every small instance where they don't is forefront in your opinion

The Flames when they have the puck are hard to play against, but they rarely have the puck for a plethora of reasons.

The Flames can be punishing at times, except you watch all 82 games and every small instance where they don't is forefront in your opinion.

If stats like size and hits are useless then generic anecdotes are way, WAY more useless because they are seeped in expectation bias.

This post is really lame. I expect a little more from you. Your argument here is that I only see what I want to see. Super. Well played.

You argue that I am being biased. Then you state that they DO stand up for each other, they DO battle hard, they ARE hard to play against and they ARE punishing. Yet you offer absolutely nothing but your own opinion to back it up. Good thing you're not biased!

As to the team size stat - you, as someone very committed to the statistical side of the game, should understand as well as anyone that team size is an average stat. A LOT of information gets lost in averages. I don't care how big the goalie is. I don't care how big the 4th line guy that plays 5 minutes is.

Taking 2 groups of 23 guys and telling me one is larger on average than the other tells me almost nothing about those two groups.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Monahan plays really soft. It's the biggest knock against him IMO. He's got less physical presence than Bouwmeester.

Okay, you're saying he's not as gritty because he plays really soft. That's like saying it's darker during the nighttime because it's not as light out.

What does Toews do to be considered "gritty" or "not soft" that Monahan doesn't do?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

What does somebody like Toews do to be gritty than somebody like Monahan doesn't?

Kane does that Gaudreau doesn't?

If you don't know why Toews is grittier than Monahan, you should probably back away from this discussion.

As to Kane and Gaudreau, neither are gritty obviously. But neither are soft either. They both battle.

The fact that it is them that you are trying to build an argument around shows that you either have no idea what is being talked about, or you are just being obtuse.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Red

Of course, let's get personal.

Whatever, I hold the belief that the Flames need size and that the Hawks are plenty tough.

I hold the belief that the Flames need skill, strength (not to be confused with size), better systems, and that the Flames are plenty tough if the Hawks are plenty tough.

The Flames management also thinks they need size and toughness.

Treliving has said that? No, he hasn't. In fact I've heard him say things in different interviews like

"I thought the Flames played like the so-called 'bigger team' in games 3,4,5 of the Ducks series. That wasn't why we lost"

"I liked the reaction to _______"

"Getting bigger for the sake of getting bigger is not the goal, adding size never hurt but it has to come with footspeed and skill"

"(players already on roster like) Bouma/Ferland/Russell etc are guys you just win with"

He's said the Flames need to be "heavier". Okay, what does he describe as heavy? He doesn't talk about teams that hit a lot and stick up for each other. He talks about "leaning" on the opponent, wearing them down. He says playing heavy isn't about being big it's about playing a certain way. He alludes to Michael Frolik as an example.

But why should we listen to them when we have you to make a better assessment.

Because my assessment is not rooted in an inferiority complex where players on other teams are put on a pedestal just because they play on better teams.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If you don't know why Toews is grittier than Monahan, you should probably back away from this discussion.

Please don't resort to this kind of discussion.

I'm not saying that Toews isn't gritter than Monahan.

But what does Toews ACTUALLY DO that makes him more "gritty" than Monahan?

Play a stronger two way game? Be considered a strong playoff performer? Be a better skater?

If these are all things that make somebody a grittier player, then sign me up.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Useless stats like average player size and hits per game?

Objective, easily-understood team metrics?

Pre-trade deadline or post trade deadline?

Obviously the Hawks GM felt they were way too soft to win the cup since 2 of his deadline moves were to add size/strength in the form of Ladd and Weise.

Frankly the fact their size and strength and hitting has gone down may be part of the reason they struggled more this year than in the past.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Pre-trade deadline or post trade deadline?

Obviously the Hawks GM felt they were way too soft to win the cup since 2 of his deadline moves were to add size/strength in the form of Ladd and Weise.

Frankly the fact their size and strength and hitting has gone down may be part of the reason they struggled more this year than in the past.

They have historically been a smaller, less physical team since 2010. Probably because when your team already has the puck, you don't need to engage the other team to take it away.

I'd say their inability to do some damage in the playoffs has more to do with losing the likes of Sharp and Saad because their 2 star players are now taking up $20 million+ in cap space.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Please don't resort to this kind of discussion.

I'm not saying that Toews isn't gritter than Monahan.

But what does Toews ACTUALLY DO that makes him more "gritty" than Monahan?

Play a stronger two way game? Be considered a strong playoff performer? Be a better skater?

If these are all things that make somebody a grittier player, then sign me up.

I think Toews would be considered grittier because he battles harder along the boards and in front of the net than Monahan and he protects the puck better than Monahan. He's harder to play against than Monahan at this point in time.

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I think Toews would be considered grittier because he battles harder along the boards and in front of the net than Monahan and he protects the puck better than Monahan.

Okay. I think Monahan scores the vast majority of his goals within 5 feet of the crease. I think he battles for position.

It just seems to me that a lot of people here using confusing better hockey players for grittier hockey players. These are simply characteristics and aspects of the game that all players would like to improve. I don't think it has anything to do with style of play.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by heep223

Ok so we agree that the Hawks, who have won 2 cups in recent years, are not a physically big team.

What I'm really saying is that I'm sick of Burke talking about adding more size and ranting about how you have to have a big, heavy team to win in the West and that it's the only way. He is famous for saying "you can't teach size". It's simply not true, but lots of people take it as gospel.

I agree that the Flames need to play tougher and meaner. But drafting players like Smith and Kanzig is what scares the #### out of me when thinking of the future of this team, and it's the one thing I hate about Burke.

Like the post above ^, where he is lumping size and toughness in together. They should be viewed separately. Flames need to get tougher for sure - but adding size is usually at the expense of skill, and that's what I worry about.

No we don't agree on that.

We do seem to agree that the Flames need to play tougher.

What frustrates me is that getting tougher does not mean that the team is going to stop seeking speed and talent and start filling the roster with Kanzigs.

Changes at the margin. It really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Ashasx

Okay. I think Monahan scores the vast majority of his goals within 5 feet of the crease. I think he battles for position.

It just seems to me that a lot of people here using confusing better hockey players for grittier hockey players. These are simply characteristics that all players would like to improve. I don't think it has anything to do with style of play.

Monahan gets open in the slot quite well and is lethal from close range. He does not win a lot of board battles. He does not win a lot of net front battles. We rarely see him screening the goalie and tipping goals in, he's not the guy who stands in front and takes a beating.

Toews uses his size and strength to his advantage more than Monahan. He'll grind behind the net and spin off defenders to drive the net. He uses "power" moves where he shields the puck and uses one hand to shove defenders away. Monahan doesn't really have that element in his game at this point. Monahan excels at finding little seams in the slots and finishing when Gaudreau finds him.

I think it's pretty clear that Toews plays a grittier and more powerful style than Monahan. We need players who have high skill but play a powerful style. The only one we have is Ferland and he hasn't really cemented himself as a top two line player yet. Thus we need to add a powerful forward or two who have top 6 skill. That is why some of us believe this #6 pick ideally would be spent on a forward who has size, strength, skating, skill and power.

Our top 6 doesn't have to be all players who play a power style. But it has to include at least 2 of them IMO, one on each line. Additionally we need a guy who can play a hard, physical shutdown style in our top 4 defense. Engelland has at times and perhaps Jokipakka can. If they can't then that would also remain a need.