Why Erik Karlsson should win the Hart

[Tinordi]

If Doughty could do what Karlsson does he would.

[saillias]

^Ding ding ding.

The same goes for the whole "Toews is better than Crosby" thing.

[Steve Bozek]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

If Karlsson is putting up points, that means the puck isn't in his end, which means he's doing his job. Just because Karlsson is putting up points does not mean he's horrible defensively. He's the best defenseman in the world if you ask me.

But if a lot of those points are on the power play, getting into the offensive zone is almost a given for most players.

I'm not a big fan of +/-, but if he's really spending most of his time in the offensive zone 5 on 5, why is he only a +3?

[Samonadreau]

If Doughty played in the Flames' system he would have 10 - 15 more points a year.

Also in the Ottawa games I have seen this year Karlsson looks as though he would sacrifice defense for offense at any opportunity

[neo45]

Doughty is much better than Karlsson because of his performances in 7 game playoff series, which is what hockey is all about. Good teams have been able to stifle Karlsson over 7 physical games. Still a great defenseman but Doughty is number one in the league because he plays better in big games

I know the Olympics aren't the be all end all, but Doughty's performance in Sochii was absolutely flawless

[saillias]

Originally Posted by neo45

Doughty is much better than Karlsson because of his performances in 7 game playoff series, which is what hockey is all about. Good teams have been able to stifle Karlsson over 7 physical games. Still a great defenseman but Doughty is number one in the league because he plays better in big games

I know the Olympics aren't the be all end all, but Doughty's performance in Sochii was absolutely flawless

Good teams have been able to stifle *the poorly built, penny pinching Senators.

No point in trying to compare team success.

I hope for Karlsson's sake he goes to a team not run by paupers so he gets the respect he deserves.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

If Karlsson played for the Kings and Doughty played for the Senators, Karlsson would have two Cups in addition to his Norris Trophies. Doughty would have two Olympic gold medals.

Sorry but this is absolute garbage to simplify it like that. The two defenseman play very different styles and Doughty's is much better suited for the large centres in the West like Getzlaf, Thornton, and Toews

[saillias]

The only thing that is garbage is comparing the Kings to the Senators to evaluate the two players.

[neo45]

Originally Posted by saillias

Good teams have been able to stifle *the poorly built, penny pinching Senators.

No point in trying to compare team success.

I hope for Karlsson's sake he goes to a team not run by paupers so he gets the respect he deserves.

The teams that have beaten the sens in the playoffs haven't been that great of teams really. New York is probably the only one I would classify as a cup contender

[neo45]

Originally Posted by saillias

The only thing that is garbage is comparing the Kings to the Senators to evaluate the two players.

Not doing that. Simply saying that Doughty is the best defenseman in the league based on his playoff play. You can't say that putting Karlsson on the Kings would yield the same success because he does not play the same style

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by saillias

^Ding ding ding.

The same goes for the whole "Toews is better than Crosby" thing.

Well, I disagree on that analogy, but it's an interesting one because if you flip it around, I think

Doughty = Crosby as a comparable
Toews = Karlsson as a comparable

The reason is because Crosby is a forward, his impact is skewed towards offense. Doughty is a defenseman, his impact is skewed towards defense. Offense from defensemen (Karlsson) is nice, and defense from forwards (Toews) is also nice, but at the end of the day Karlsson will never consistently dominate the entire league in scoring (Crosby) and Toews will never play 30+ minutes a game of absolute suffocation (Doughty).

IMO:

Crosby > Toews
Doughty > Karlsson

Crosby + Doughty (Would score a lot and still be impossible to score on) >>> Toews + Karlsson (Would score a decent amount, and defend a decent amount, but still not be outstanding as a team)

whereas

Toews + Doughty (Would keep games low scoring, but would not score a lot)= Crosby + Karlsson (Would score a lot, but get scored on a lot)

People overrating Karlsson's offense, which still doesn't make him the best offensive producer in the league minute for minute in a 60 minute game, are the same as people overrating Toews' defense, which still doesn't make him the best defensive producer in the league minute for minute in a 60 minute game. Karlsson's behind three forwards in scoring while playing way more minutes than them, and Toews can't play 30 minutes a game.

Maybe Doughty couldn't put up the kind of scoring Karlsson does, but he's already shown he can put up ~60 points in a more offensive system. And maybe Crosby can't defend as well or as deep in his zone as Toews does, but he's also a center, he's at his best playing higher in his zone and converting that into offense.

I see no need for Crosby to win a Selke or for Doughty to win an Art Ross. They're both pretty much the two best players in the league because they are so dominant at the tasks of their own position without needing to do tasks reserved for other positions.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by Steve Bozek

But if a lot of those points are on the power play, getting into the offensive zone is almost a given for most players.

I'm not a big fan of +/-, but if he's really spending most of his time in the offensive zone 5 on 5, why is he only a +3?

Because he's only one of the 6 guys on the ice. +3 on that team is impressive. Ottawa is absolute trash without Karlsson.

[saillias]

Wrong thread

[Erick Estrada]

Anyone see the Senators/Canucks game last night? Man this guy is horrible defensively. Horrible! Got lit up by the Canucks B grade players. It's kind of a farce the Karlsson should ever win another Norris. If you want to glorify him for his points give out a trophy for best rover but this guy single handedly makes Phaneuf look like a shut down defender.

I guess you want him on your team because he's a top scorer but he's so bad defensively that he's a boom or bust guy. The fact that the more he scores the worse the Senators record is makes me wonder if any team could truly win anything substantial with this guy being your top defenseman.

[flambers]

Senators would need to make the playoffs for Erik Karlsson to have a chance to win the Hart.

[billybob123]

To be fair to Karlsson, the entire team outside of Stone and Anderson played like crap last night. EK was terrible.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by billybob123

To be fair to Karlsson, the entire team outside of Stone and Anderson played like crap last night. EK was terrible.

I could somewhat live with it if it was the Sedins torching him because they have done that to even the best but it was the bottom lines that were taking advantage of him last night.

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by kerriffic

So basically the bottom graphic looks at the players relative to all defenceman with over 500 min of five vs five hockey..... Players to the right = good, and players to the left of the graph = not so good. The middle players are considered average in relation to the rest of the league. I mean right now doughty isn't even the best on his own team, he's very much average.

That Brayden McNabb is so hot right now!

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

If Doughty could do what Karlsson does he would.

Doughty isn't trying to do what Karlsson is doing, he is doing what his coach and his team wants him to do.

And as a result, they actually win hockey games.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by enoch root

doughty isn't trying to do what karlsson is doing, he is doing what his coach and his team wants him to do.

And as a result, they actually win hockey gameschampionships.

ftfy