2014-2015 How will the Flames, Oilers, Canucks do?

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Poe969

I think you do need to make trades and sign players (usually support players) but you could also argue that teams only need to trade for players or sign UFA's because they didn't draft well enough.

This is the position that Calgary is in right now. We haven`t drafted well enough since the lockout year. The only players that even provide a mediocre amount of support are Mikael Backlund, TJ Brodie, Sean Monahan and hopefully Johnny Hockey.

[tko]

Originally Posted by Poe969

The Flames lost their best offensive weapon in Cammy. For the team to be as good as last year Gio will have to have another career year, Brodie will have to step up again, Monahan will have to play great again and Hartley will have to have the team giving 100% in every game. A lot of good things have to happen for the Flames just to be as good as last year. I just don't see how or why you think the Flames will be better than 4 teams in the west.

Leadership, coaching, & youth. Cammy was decent but I believe his goals will be replaced.
Gaudreau, Maybe Sven, a full season Glencross (Maybe), better tending (hopefully). I like what Harley has instilled and I believe it will pay dividends. I don't think they will be as bad as most think.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

You build from both. Can't rely heavily on either way.

I'd also like to add to this: You can't build solely from either drafting or free agency. Using the Flyers and Oilers for example:

Look at the Oilers when it comes to focusing on just drafting: They still suck

Look at the Flyers when it comes to focusing on just signing UFA's: They are okay, but they won't touch the cup for a while.

The Oilers did sign some UFA's, but their drafting and UFA signing will still have them suck because of horrible management.

The Flyers look like they a turning their management around (which is good), but they definitely need to draft better. And when you keep your draft picks, you'd have players like Carter and Richards still on your team. Imagine those two playing with Giroux, a pick they actually kept.

[Poe969]

because they're still young. As they mature, I doubt any of those guys are considered "support" players. Backlund is becoming a solid third line player, Brodie is (or at least was last year) a #2 defenseman, Monahan was one of our best players and Johnny hockey looks like he has the skill to put most players to shame. Calling those guys "support" players really isn't that accurate. If you factor in that there are still guys like Klimchuck, Gillies, Ortio, Sven and all the other prospects we have, we're doing well (even if they don't all develop into quality players).

There will always be a need to sign some players or trade for some players but if you're looking to build a team, it's usually around someone you draft. It is extremely rare to find a "franchise" player to build around through trade or UFA signing let alone say that's how it should be done.

[Poe969]

Originally Posted by tko

Leadership, coaching, & youth. Cammy was decent but I believe his goals will be replaced.
Gaudreau, Maybe Sven, a full season Glencross (Maybe), better tending (hopefully). I like what Harley has instilled and I believe it will pay dividends. I don't think they will be as bad as most think.

so we will be better by maybe having better players.... Leadership; we lost cammy who was high scoring "vet" and replaced him with Raymond; I don't see how leadership has improved, if anything we lost leadership. Coaching; went from Hartley to...Hartley. I can see how we've improved there. Youth...well you said that we improved leadership and then said youth so unless we improved leadership by having less of it. Young players might make a difference, it might also kick us in the butt. Playing 82 games is going to take its toll on young players who aren't used to it or aren't used to the game so we may get better because of youth but we may also get worse because of it. Banking on Glencross being healthy isn't a safe bet and even if he is healthy, betting on him being a difference maker isn't a safe bet either. Better goaltending (maybe)? Again we may have got better but we may have got worse....I don't see Hiller as that much (if any) of an improvement in net.

It's ok to say that you just have a feeling they'll be better but you can understand why people would be hesitant since on paper it looks like a bad team became worse in the Flames case.

[Critter4223]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I think it is very likely that Vancouver will be worse than Calgary. They were pretty ugly last year and they haven't really done anything this off-season. The Sedins are getting old and not the threat that they once were. I don't think they will be worse than Edmonton though. Edmonton has a huge problem with effort and chemistry from their young guys. They also still have a huge void in defense and goaltending.

Ryan Miller is a huge void?

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I would build a team around making the right trades and picking up the right free agents over trying to have success by drafting a team.

You are creating a false dichotomy.

Successful teams are good at all three aspects of team building.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Critter4223

Ryan Miller is a huge void?

I think he might be. His last two seasons, in Buffalo and St. Louis, were pretty disappointing. In my comment I was referring to Edmonton`s lack of goaltending though.

[Vinny01]

I think relying heavily on drafting totally works but you have to be good at it. For instance the Oilers could pick the consensus player at the top but couldn't draft outside the first round. Not being able to draft well hurts their tradeable assets. Looking at the Oilers they are built through top picks, UFA signings. They traded for Perron and Purcell by giving up 2 former top 10 picks so even the decent looking assets that arrived via trade cost them a lot

Where I am loving the flames right now is it looks like they have hit a few nice late round steals (still a lot to prove) but Gaudreau, Granlund, Reinhart, Wortherspoon, Gillies, Arnold, Ferland, Kulak, Ortio all look like nice finds outside the first round (not to mention Brodie and Bouma). If down the road there is not enough room for all of Sven, Johnny, Klimchuck, Reinhart, Granlund, Jankowski Eric but all remain solid young pieces the flames will have the ability to make good trades to solidify areas of need.

I think drafting is the true key to building because it gives the team the assets needed to make trades and can build a strong team that UFA's are drawn to

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Poe969

I enjoy when people disagree as long as they back it up. Just saying "I think they'll be better because I like them" doesn't really cut it.

Yes, agreed.

As to your point about replacing Squid's goal scoring...he had 26 in 63 games. Glennie had 12 in 38 games. A healthy Glennie + adding Raymond I think can easily make up and surpass this, do you?

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Poe969

It's ok to say that you just have a feeling they'll be better but you can understand why people would be hesitant since on paper it looks like a bad team became worse in the Flames case.

He's not saying he just has a feeling. He's listing legit reasons why he thinks the Flames could be better this year. He doesn't think that on paper the team looks worse than last year.

[Bezer]

I think Calgary actually regresses this year, which is OK as long as the compete is still there.

Edmonton will finally get a bit better but no playoffs. I think Vancouver will probably be the top of the three but they wont make the playoffs either, the west is too tough.

[bax]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

I would build a team around making the right trades and picking up the right free agents over trying to have success by drafting a team.

This is actually crazy

[IamNotKenKing]

Originally Posted by bax

This is literally crazy

Figuratively...

[tko]

Originally Posted by Poe969

so we will be better by maybe having better players.... Leadership; we lost cammy who was high scoring "vet" and replaced him with Raymond; I don't see how leadership has improved, if anything we lost leadership. Coaching; went from Hartley to...Hartley. I can see how we've improved there. Youth...well you said that we improved leadership and then said youth so unless we improved leadership by having less of it. Young players might make a difference, it might also kick us in the butt. Playing 82 games is going to take its toll on young players who aren't used to it or aren't used to the game so we may get better because of youth but we may also get worse because of it. Banking on Glencross being healthy isn't a safe bet and even if he is healthy, betting on him being a difference maker isn't a safe bet either. Better goaltending (maybe)? Again we may have got better but we may have got worse....I don't see Hiller as that much (if any) of an improvement in net.

It's ok to say that you just have a feeling they'll be better but you can understand why people would be hesitant since on paper it looks like a bad team became worse in the Flames case.

Yeah fair enough, I get why you think they will suck ... Most do.
I did say that I think we will be better than those teams because of our leadership (Gio mainly) coaching and an influx of some more good youth (hopefully). I didn't mean to insinuate that we have improved substantially in those areas, but I also don't believe we are any worse either.
Hey I know I'm in the minority here in regards to possible improvement (red colored glasses lol)

Gio is an incredible captain that leads by example, every single night (one of the better leaders in the league) I don't put much stock in losing Cammy or gaining Raymond tbh. I also believe we have one of the best coaches in the league. Add in another year for colborne, monahan, backlund, and Brodie, add in some more GOOD young talent, Gaudreau, Poirier, or Grandlund possibly, maybe Bennett. They were 'in' almost every game, tons of one one goal games. This was with Gio, Glencross, Ramo out for a period of time. Even cammalleri and wideman were out for awhile. Hiller has to be an improvement on Berra. Berra cost us quite a few games.

Anyways, Like I said I know I'm in the minority here, but I like what's happening and I stand by my call and I believe the flames will be better in the standings than the oilers, jets, Canucks 😃. It's okay to disagree tho.

Part of me hopes I'm wrong ................ McDavid

[Vinny01]

tko you don't out much stock in losing Cammy yet Burke/Treliving desperately tried to keep him but would not give up the term. Burke called Cammy a disciple of what the flames are trying to do and he was clearly a leader in the room.

Personally I am glad we did not give him the contract the Devils did and with our LW future looking bright it was the right call to let him go but listening to what management had to say about him we lost a key leader on and off the ice.

The Flames had injuries last year but also came out on top of more one goal games than they lost. Losing a 25 goal scorer will be tough. Adding Raymond who might pot 20 and hopefully a full year of Glencross will balance it out. I just think this team did very little to improve in the short term but that is a good thing.

I think the key to this year is showcase some kids and see what they have. Hopefully they end up with their highest draft choice yet and have assets to make some big additions next summer.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

I'd also like to add to this: You can't build solely from either drafting or free agency. Using the Flyers and Oilers for example:

Look at the Oilers when it comes to focusing on just drafting: They still suck

Look at the Flyers when it comes to focusing on just signing UFA's: They are okay, but they won't touch the cup for a while.

The Oilers did sign some UFA's, but their drafting and UFA signing will still have them suck because of horrible management.

The Flyers look like they a turning their management around (which is good), but they definitely need to draft better. And when you keep your draft picks, you'd have players like Carter and Richards still on your team. Imagine those two playing with Giroux, a pick they actually kept.

The Flames have replaced the bulk of their management and coaching staff since being removed from playoff contention. They relocated their AHL team and changed the mandate, as well as the ECHL team. The Flames didn't simply rebuild the roster and cupboards, they rebuilt the organization. And they only hired those with qualifications and experience.

This is what will ultimately separate the Oilers and Flyers from the Flames.

[stemit14]

Originally Posted by tko

Yeah fair enough, I get why you think they will suck ... Most do.

I did say that I think we will be better than those teams because of our leadership (Gio mainly) coaching and an influx of some more good youth (hopefully). I didn't mean to insinuate that we have improved substantially in those areas, but I also don't believe we are any worse either.

Hey I know I'm in the minority here in regards to possible improvement (red colored glasses lol)



Gio is an incredible captain that leads by example, every single night (one of the better leaders in the league) I don't put much stock in losing Cammy or gaining Raymond tbh. I also believe we have one of the best coaches in the league. Add in another year for colborne, monahan, backlund, and Brodie, add in some more GOOD young talent, Gaudreau, Poirier, or Grandlund possibly, maybe Bennett. They were 'in' almost every game, tons of one one goal games. This was with Gio, Glencross, Ramo out for a period of time. Even cammalleri and wideman were out for awhile. Hiller has to be an improvement on Berra. Berra cost us quite a few games.



Anyways, Like I said I know I'm in the minority here, but I like what's happening and I stand by my call and I believe the flames will be better in the standings than the oilers, jets, Canucks 😃. It's okay to disagree tho.



Part of me hopes I'm wrong ................ McDavid

Good post. I agree. More things went wrong for the flames last year than went right and I think that led to a worse record than they deserved. Both goalies were below average for the first half of the year. Plus the flames outplayed opponents in most games. Came out on the wrong end of 1 goal games that they deserved to win. Improvements in goaltending this year could be a huge boost. Plus the young players getting better and given top six roles could surprise a few people.

[Poe969]

Originally Posted by tko

Yeah fair enough, I get why you think they will suck ... Most do.
I did say that I think we will be better than those teams because of our leadership (Gio mainly) coaching and an influx of some more good youth (hopefully). I didn't mean to insinuate that we have improved substantially in those areas, but I also don't believe we are any worse either.
Hey I know I'm in the minority here in regards to possible improvement (red colored glasses lol)

Gio is an incredible captain that leads by example, every single night (one of the better leaders in the league) I don't put much stock in losing Cammy or gaining Raymond tbh. I also believe we have one of the best coaches in the league. Add in another year for colborne, monahan, backlund, and Brodie, add in some more GOOD young talent, Gaudreau, Poirier, or Grandlund possibly, maybe Bennett. They were 'in' almost every game, tons of one one goal games. This was with Gio, Glencross, Ramo out for a period of time. Even cammalleri and wideman were out for awhile. Hiller has to be an improvement on Berra. Berra cost us quite a few games.

Anyways, Like I said I know I'm in the minority here, but I like what's happening and I stand by my call and I believe the flames will be better in the standings than the oilers, jets, Canucks ��. It's okay to disagree tho.

Part of me hopes I'm wrong ................ McDavid

I'm there with you in that I think the reasons they did "well" last year are some reasons they might do better this year but at the same time I see that other teams have improved as well. Last year a few things actually went well for us and they will have to happen again in order to be as good as last year. The bad things that happened to us happen to every team all the time, injuries happen and are more common than guys having career years.

All the reasons you think the Flames will do better this year are all the reasons most of us are excited to watch this coming year. I think they'll be a fun team to watch but I just don't see them being too successful. Either way, it's going to be another great year of hockey.

It's so funny that when we were expecting them to be a better team and they were average, everyone was mad but now that they're a bottom 5 or so team, everyone is just enjoying the game more.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

The Flames have replaced the bulk of their management and coaching staff since being removed from playoff contention. They relocated their AHL team and changed the mandate, as well as the ECHL team. The Flames didn't simply rebuild the roster and cupboards, they rebuilt the organization. And they only hired those with qualifications and experience.

This is what will ultimately separate the Oilers and Flyers from the Flames.

And I completely agree with that. It's great to see all of these changes. Hoping to see some great things happen with this team and organization, we're making all of the right moves.