the subtle difference is if the Israeli teens murders was done by known Hamas operatives as has been indicated then its a government sponsored killing. If the retaliation killing was done by a radical group as indicated so far then its equivalent to gang violence and different.
I think the another difference is that there is outrage in Israel that Jew's committed that type of crime (I am no sure if that is solved yet). On the other side? Cheering! I was just reading today about how the IDF amubulance was attacked by rioters when they were trying to collect the bodies. The whole story is disgusting.
Jewish settlements in the West Bank aren't Israel though. So yes, they should leave those settlements and leave the Palestinians alone. If they want to be citizens in a new Palestinian state, though, they're more than welcome to stay.
Is your take that Jews are kicking Palestinians out of their homes and building theirs over top?
Yeah...its only those Muslim Arabs who oppose the Israeli zionist regime. How about Nelson Mandela, Noam Chomsky and former US president Jimmy Carter?
I can play that game too - South African MP Rev. Dr. Kenneth Meshoe; Alan Dershowitz; Khaled Abu Toameh; Austrailian Prime Minister Tony Abbott; Canadian Prime Minister Stephen harper.
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Or the thousands of orthodox jews who protest every year against zionist Israel and call for its peaceful destruction
Some reference for other readers - The Neturei Karta are a sect of Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, numbering about 5,000-6,000. Their staunch belief is that ONLY G-D can bring about the return of Jews to the Land of Israel through the Messiah. They deem the modern State of Israel as not holding to true, strict Jewish law as they interpret it - no equal rights for women, homosexuality is an abomination, no pigs/pork or seafood in the land, everything is closed on Saturday. (Can you find any pictures of US Satanic Cults - they have just as much respect.).
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P.S. someone who is on the Palestinian side of things cannot be labeled anti-Semitic. Arabs are semitic people as well. Semitic meaning someone who descends from the biblical son of Noah called Shem. So cut the crap about everyone who sympathizes with the Palestinians being anti-semitic. They are both semitic people, supporting Palestine doesnt make you anti-semitic it makes you anti-zionist
P.S. Thanks for the biblical definition of Semitic. It is widely accepted by the right, the left, academics, laypeople, leaders, and the public that the modern definition of Antisemitism is "Hatred towards Jews."
I agree that not everyone who sympathizes with the Palestinians is Anti-Semitic. That doesn't make you anti-Zionist either. One can sympathize with Palestinians and still argue and advocate for a two-state solution, criticize Israels policies (home demolishons, checkpoints, the security fence) and it's government (too right wing, to much power with small religious parties), and criticize Palestinian leadership (too weak to take a bold step, saying one thing to the West and the opposite to the Arab street).
But when one moves into topics like "Israel has not right to exist", "Jews do not have real ties to the land or Jerusalem.", "Israel is only there is ease the world's guilt over WWII", That is anti-semitism and the one espousing those views tries to mask it as anti-zionism. They are one and the same.
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And to those of you calling it a hatecrime when people label Israel as a theocratic apartheid state - you are completely ignorant of what the words anti-semitism or hate crime mean.
It is not a hate crime when you label Israel an Apartheid state - it is a lie and a slur.
I have no interest in accusing anyone of being ignorant of anything - most here generally seem pretty rational and we all use our own competing sources to help prove our points. Hell, I even read Noam Chomsky (at the behest of Flash Walken) - I found him laborious and dismissive of violence and rehtoric on the other side.
I do think you need to work on your definitions of Aparthied, Anti-semitism, Theocracy, and hate-crime.
I have only come across one poster who was indeed anti-Semitic and I made my case to the moderators. He no longer posts here.
I do think you need to work on your definitions of Aparthied, Anti-semitism, Theocracy, and hate-crime.
I have only come across one poster who was indeed anti-Semitic and I made my case to the moderators. He no longer posts here.
Well put and exactly right. I believe it is also antisemitism when confronted with the truth and they simply repeat the same slurs again and again. If they have no interest in rational debate and only slurs, it is clear what is going on.
Tell the lies once and we can easily see who fed them the information, repeat it and it is part of a larger problem.
I received pretty bad backlash for pointing out the lies (and the truth).
Well put and exactly right. I believe it is also antisemitism when confronted with the truth and they simply repeat the same slurs again and again. If they have no interest in rational debate and only slurs, it is clear what is going on.
Tell the lies once and we can easily see who fed them the information, repeat it and it is part of a larger problem.
I received pretty bad backlash for pointing out the lies (and the truth).
Well no, you never really point anything out. You just keep bashing the same garbage into these threads to the point where the other side is just exhausted by your Anti-Arab lunacy.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't mind arguing this topic with others, but you on the other hand, it's almost fun to watch you blow up over the mere mention of the words "Israel" or "Palestine".... almost
Well no, you never really point anything out. You just keep bashing the same garbage into these threads to the point where the other side is just exhausted by your Anti-Arab lunacy.
Nice slur against me, and I guarantee you will never post anything to support that. Pathetic. I am also doing more for the Palestinians than you ever will - rather than try to enable them via violence as you do, I hope for peace. Enough violence, from both sides.
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Originally Posted by _Q_
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I don't mind arguing this topic with others, but you on the other hand, it's almost fun to watch you blow up over the mere mention of the words "Israel" or "Palestine".... almost
Sure, you seem to bounce all over the place with your rhetoric, truly hateful stuff.
True, if you were to focus on antiSemitic nonesense. If you were to actually avoid the revisionist history, Israel is a pretty normal and free country, besides being surrounded by some pretty vile regimes.
I couldn't imagine the devastation leashed upon the Palestinians (by Arab neighbours) if Israel was to actually pack up and leave.
How many Arabs have been killed by Arabs in the past year alone? But wait, Tinordi jumps in to insult Israel when several jewish kids/young adults are murdered by Hamas.
Pretty typical of some posters here and pathetic as usual.
That's racist hate speech
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Originally Posted by Nage Waza
You mean I ruin it for those that want to use this site to spread hate? If you wish to debate the merits of Israeli policy, I would love to. Mostly I see posts filled with venom, I won't stand back and sit quietly. And now you try to smear me with no facts or quotes at all.
If you could post something hateful from me, please do, but you can't.
Israel is a bastion of right, in fact people from many countries go there to escape hateful regimes. Israel is a country that defends minorities and teaches tolerance, much more (massively more) than their neighbours.
I doubt you will post anything intelligent as a response.
Sure, except if you're a native born Arab. Then you're not a human. So it's garbage.
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Originally Posted by Nage Waza
You are 100% correct, but failed to mention that this was in response to the never ending rockets being fired. No rockets, no death. It does not get much more simple than that.
That's equivalent to saying violence is a solution to Israel's problems. Pretty much what you accused me of doing (which if you can read properly, I never did)
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Originally Posted by Nage Waza
Living conditions are often considered better than the rest of the arab world, but yah I figured you would gloss over that. Living conditions of Palestinians living in Israel? World class. Hamas does a terrible job of raising the quality of life via terror. Please let me know when the IDF is doing this. From every good source, the only reason there is any threat from IDF is due to rockets and other terrorism. The fact you do not mention this is very telling and one sided.
You forgot to mention that Palestinians get treatment also at Israeli hospitals, including Abbas' wife. Things were going well for Palestinians until the intifadah, why don't you mention that?
They also launch rockets from their houses, schools and hospitals. They are seen as freedom fighters due to radical teaching.
They are terrorists, nice try painting them as anything but.
So what do you explain for the radicals in the rest of the Arab world? This is the only region immune to it due to big bad Israel? If things were going well for Palestinians the rest of the Arab world would look pretty bad due to their low standard of living - they cannot afford Palestinians to do well and so fund Hamas.
That's racist hate speach and a hilarious fallacy. Nice try though.
This is all from this thread. If I were to dig up your old posts I could write a novel on this.
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I can play that game too - South African MP Rev. Dr. Kenneth Meshoe; Alan Dershowitz; Khaled Abu Toameh; Austrailian Prime Minister Tony Abbott; Canadian Prime Minister Stephen harper.
I wasnt playing a game.. he said the only people who oppose israel are arabs. I gave examples of non-arabs and jews who oppose the zionist state of israel.
One photograph that was posted to the page is of two teenage girls smiling, embracing each other and holding a piece of paper saying, “Hating Arabs is not racism, it’s values.”
Israel has a pretty big racism issue, not just to palestinians but to the african immigrants who are there get treated like crap.
I wasnt playing a game.. he said the only people who oppose israel are arabs. I gave examples of non-arabs and jews who oppose the zionist state of israel.
Israel has a pretty big racism issue, not just to palestinians but to the african immigrants who are there get treated like crap.
African migrants get treated like crap everywhere. No country in the world lets them in. Thousands die every year trying to get into Europe. What's with the double standard?
Israel was actually one of the few countries that allowed sizeable amounts in. That only encouraged more. At one point there were 10s of thousands of desperate people pouring into the country every year. Almost all moved to a few neighbourhoods in Tel Aviv. There wasn't work. Many resorted to crime. The local residents became very upset.
Also, there are about 150,000 ethiopian Jews who live in Israel legally. There are no issues with them despite their skin colour.
You're right Israel hasn't figured out the African migrant problem. I don't see how they have anymore of a problem with racism than any other country in the region though.
Also, there are also plenty of non-Jews who support Israel...so what's your point?
Sure, except if you're a native born Arab. Then you're not a human. So it's garbage.
That's equivalent to saying violence is a solution to Israel's problems. Pretty much what you accused me of doing (which if you can read properly, I never did)
That's racist hate speach and a hilarious fallacy. Nice try though.
This is all from this thread. If I were to dig up your old posts I could write a novel on this.
You've just spent the last how many pages calling Naga out for the anti-semitism card. Now you're using he anti-Arab card when he criticizes the surrounding Arab nations? I think you need to take a look at how Jordan, Lebanon, Egypt, etc... have all treated the Palestinians.
The Arab League declared all dual Palestinian citizens could only be Palestinian citizens. They then confiscated all property they owned. Also please google Black September. Jordan killed more Palestinians in a few months, than Israel has in the entire conflict.
The reality of the situation is that anti-semitism, islamophobia, and racism are all likely to rear their head in this discussion and we should guard from resorting to that kind of thinking. Calling out the Arab nations in the middle east for being historically violent towards the Palestinian people is not racism though.
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Originally Posted by _Q_
That's racist hate speech
Sure, except if you're a native born Arab. Then you're not a human. So it's garbage.
This isn't remotely true. There are almost 2 million Arabs who live in Israel, hold Israeli citizenship, and have full rights. Christian Arabs even have higher education levels than the Jewish population. The relations aren't perfect, but when you frame them in the context of an ethno-religious conflict, they are pretty solid.
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Uh huh. It's always something, isn't it? Oh, that's not a neutral body, oh they're withholding Palestinian money because somehow getting an upgraded status at the UN is a threat to Israeli security, oh they just hate Israel for the sake of hate and not because they can see the illegal construction taking place in front of their eyes. On and on the excuses go.
You're right it is always something..the constant threat of violence. The simple fact of the matter is that Israel owes security to its citizens. It has to make attempts to stop its enemies from getting weapons.
This is from Hamas' charter:
Article 7:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.
Article 22
You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it."
Article 32:
Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are say
These aren't obscure texts. This is the charter....it actually reference the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Also please google Black September. Jordan killed more Palestinians in a few months, than Israel has in the entire conflict.
Black September was terrible. I agree. But more Palestinians died during the Israeli War of Independence than Black September.
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Originally Posted by blankall
This isn't remotely true. There are almost 2 million Arabs who live in Israel, hold Israeli citizenship, and have full rights. Christian Arabs even have higher education levels than the Jewish population. The relations aren't perfect, but when you frame them in the context of an ethno-religious conflict, they are pretty solid.
Sure, I'll concede that Arab Israelis live a pretty decent quality of life. Even they don't want any part of a Palestinian State if it would ever come to fruition. But also, living conditions in the Arab world are not nearly as poor as Nage makes them out to be. I've been to the Middle East many times. While I wouldn't necessarily want to move there, being an average Joe with a half decent education in Amman, Beirut, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Doha, Manama or many other cities is not a bad life at all. It's no Calgary or Vancouver, but it's certainly vastly better than most places in the world.
What I'm talking about, however, are the 4 million Arabs living in the West Bank or Gaza that can't escape to the "bastian of right in the region" because they're of the wrong ethnic background. Hell, they can't even move to a neighbourhood within their land that's deemed "Jewish only". Call it what you will, but if that's not racism, I don't know what is.
Black September was terrible. I agree. But more Palestinians died during the Israeli War of Independence than Black September.
Not true.
The Israeli War of Independence was a fairly two-sided war. As far as Palestinian casualties the estimates range anywhere from 3000 to 13000. In Black September the high mark is about 20,000.
The 1948 war was by far the bloodiest war in the entire conflict.
My previous statement about totals might be slightly inaccurate, but that only depends on how you count.
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Originally Posted by _Q_
Sure, I'll concede that Arab Israelis live a pretty decent quality of life. Even they don't want any part of a Palestinian State if it would ever come to fruition. But also, living conditions in the Arab world are not nearly as poor as Nage makes them out to be. I've been to the Middle East many times. While I wouldn't necessarily want to move there, being an average Joe with a half decent education in Amman, Beirut, Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Doha, Manama or many other cities is not a bad life at all. It's no Calgary or Vancouver, but it's certainly vastly better than most places in the world.
Your discounting the massive wealth inequality. You're talking about the nice places. Also, why is a place like Dubai or Abu Dhabi in the picture? Unless I missed that gigantic oil field underneath Jerusalem that's not happening in any state in that region.
I don't dispute that Palestinians have a pretty crappy life. The constant comparisons to Apartheid and the Holocaust are way off base though. The Palestinians also have to take some responsibility for their situation. They are actively choosing a traditional religious way of life. That kind of extreme conservatism and prosperity are incompatible...unless you sit on the world's biggest oil field and hire an army of Indian slaves to do all of your work.
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Originally Posted by _Q_
What I'm talking about, however, are the 4 million Arabs living in the West Bank or Gaza that can't escape to the "bastian of right in the region" because they're of the wrong ethnic background. Hell, they can't even move to a neighbourhood within their land that's deemed "Jewish only". Call it what you will, but if that's not racism, I don't know what is.
Jews are allowed to live anywhere inside the West Bank or the Gaza Strip? No wait, they're called settlers if they do. The punishment for selling Palestinian land to a Jew...death.
The fact of the matter is that you have two entirely separate cultures who want entirely different things. The state of Israel is no more racist than a proposed Palestinian state or a the state of Ireland.
You're also way off base calling an issue of race. The majority of Jewish Israelis are Safardic or Asiatic, which means they have brown skin just like the Arabs. The intermarriage rate between Ashkenazi Jews and non-Ashekenazi Jews within Israel is over 50%. In fact, the rate of intermarriage between Ashkenazi and non-Ashkenazi is so high the defintions really don't apply anymore in Israel. Instead, term Sabra is used to describe the new mix.
Despite what they may side, neither side in this conflict wants peace. There's absolutely no justification for choosing either side, and turning a blind eye to their misdeeds.
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Despite what they may side, neither side in this conflict wants peace. There's absolutely no justification for choosing either side, and turning a blind eye to their misdeeds.
How about this? Give me a reason why I should like Israel?
This is probably where you lose everyone.
Israel has contributed a lot of good to the world despite their policies regarding Palestine or any of their neighbors.
The fact that you can't see that makes you an extremist IMO as well.
