[News Roundup] Burke does his homework. Has a hockey trade in the works?

[cKy]

Originally Posted by Aarongavey

Burke will do very well, he is very good at trading, he has said so himself.

This made me laugh. I'm an astronaut and a machine in the sack, I said so myself.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by New Era

Jay Feaster had to trade Jarome Iginla to one team. Try and get a good deal out of that. The fact that he managed to snake a first and two decent prospects like Agostino and Hanowski is pretty good. Would we have liked more? Hell yes. But Iginla screwed the Flames by reneging on his list of teams he would be traded to.

I love how the opinion of Jay Bouwmeester has turned around here. Where was all this love for him when he played here? When he was here, the attitude was he was one of the worst contracts in the league and waste of money. Working off that premise Feaster was a ####ing magician to dump Bouwmeester for a first, two other prospects and not take back any other salary.

But of course you're going to use revisionist history and make it seem like Feaster had a ton to work with. Trade one player with what was considered a horrible contract and another guy that prevented the GM from using other teams as leverage. Those were no win situations. We'll see how Burke does with the players at his disposal.

Go back to 1 week before the trades and tell me if its revisionist history..... you'll see its not. Go ahead...... do it.

Cammalleri has no where near the pedigree of Iginla, and Wideman has nowhere near the pedigree of Bouwmeester. A better comparable might be Regehr (Regehr+2nd for Butler)..... if Burke can get Wideman+2nd for Butler-like return, that would be a better comparable.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Since we don't know the details of what other teams offered, it's impossible to make that assessment. IIRC, the Wings, for one, were not interested in moving a first round pick.



What does an Olympic gold medal in 2014 have to do with Bouwmeester's trade value in 2013? It might make you personally feel worse, but it's irrelevant to the matter of Bouwmeester's trade value at the time, and more importantly, the number of teams that were able to give up a 1st round pick and take his contract on.

The valued return from Calgary's perspective for bouwmeester was predictable months before it happened.

There was no pressure to deal Bouwmeester as he still had a year left on his contract.

If the climate for a trade isn't what you want it to be and you're in no position of weakness in terms of pending free agency, you don't get to plead mulligan because some goofs on some goofy message board think he's a buyout candidate and you managed to get a 1st rounder (bare minimum return for players of Iginla nd Bouwmeester's stature) and some throwaways.

There was no pressure to trade Bouwmeester if you weren't going to get value. That they got a predictable return for Bouwmeester isn't a feather in Feaster's cap. It's one of the reasons he was fired.

You and I generally agree on a lot Cliff, but I think you're totally out to lunch here. Bouwmeester was a top pairing defender on all 30 teams in the NHL at the time he was traded, the only issue was a higher than desired cap hit.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Since we don't know the details of what other teams offered, it's impossible to make that assessment. IIRC, the Wings, for one, were not interested in moving a first round pick.



What does an Olympic gold medal in 2014 have to do with Bouwmeester's trade value in 2013? It might make you personally feel worse, but it's irrelevant to the matter of Bouwmeester's trade value at the time, and more importantly, the number of teams that were able to give up a 1st round pick and take his contract on.

It is clear Sutter was the reason for Bouws terrible first 3 years in Calgary. He was on a definite upswing last year playing at a 10 goal 40pt pace. Feaster got a protected 1st, and forced the team taking him to take the full cap hit. Why not eat salary? The flames could have ate half the cap and then we get some serious value. Trading a 29 year old number 1-2 Dman that can log heavy minutes and getting a protected first, an undersized AHL Dman, and a backup goalie is a massive fail. Especially with the cap retwntion which makes the cap hit afforsablw to almost any team

[FAN]

I didn't mind Feaster targeting a first for Bouwmeester and he probably got the highest first that he could have gotten. Last year being a deep draft, it probably was a good idea to trade Bouwmeester last season rather than this season if a first round pick is what the team is after.

But did Feaster get full value? Probably not. He asked for Cundari and Berra and I bet Feaster gave up some value just to get those two. Feaster was probably better off asking for a 1st and 2nd rather than those two prospects.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

A better comparable might be Regehr (Regehr+2nd for Butler)..... if Burke can get Wideman+2nd for Butler-like return, that would be a better comparable.

Don't forget about Kotalik

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

There was no pressure to deal Bouwmeester as he still had a year left on his contract.

If the climate for a trade isn't what you want it to be and you're in no position of weakness in terms of pending free agency, you don't get to plead mulligan because some goofs on some goofy message board think he's a buyout candidate and you managed to get a 1st rounder (bare minimum return for players of Iginla nd Bouwmeester's stature) and some throwaways.

There was no pressure to trade Bouwmeester if you weren't going to get value. That they got a predictable return for Bouwmeester isn't a feather in Feaster's cap. It's one of the reasons he was fired.hit.

As stated above this was a pretty strong draft and an excellent time to load up on 1st rounders, not like Bouw was going to make us a contender this year. I'll take the gamble on the first half of Poirier's career over 1 more year with Bouw on a bottom feeder team. And I was a Bouw supporter.

[Dajazz]

Put me in the camp where I think the return for both Iginla and Bouwmeester where underwhelming. High 1st round picks and marginal prospects, not so good on paper. I don't mind the firsts, they *can* turn in to diamonds, but Hanowski, Cundari, Berra? Eeeh.... They need a LOT of work to stick in the big league and they aren't exactly highly touted 19 year old wonder kids. Agostino, who knows?

However, if those picks like Poirier turn in to solid producers thats another thing. But right now, on paper, those were bad trades in my book

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by Phanuthier

Go back to 1 week before the trades and tell me if its revisionist history..... you'll see its not. Go ahead...... do it.

Cammalleri has no where near the pedigree of Iginla, and Wideman has nowhere near the pedigree of Bouwmeester. A better comparable might be Regehr (Regehr+2nd for Butler)..... if Burke can get Wideman+2nd for Butler-like return, that would be a better comparable.

Or, when Regehr was dealt to LA the next season Regehr (on his own) was worth 2 2nd round picks.

It's safe to say that ditching Kotalik's contract was a factor in Feaster getting a terrible return for Regehr. However, Feaster's management of that particular asset might not be the best example when comparing the situations.

[FlameZilla]

Anyways, put me in the camp that has more faith in Burke's ability to get value for assets than Jay Feaster.

Also, put me in the camp that is somewhat afraid that Burke will go scorched earth on this franchise and deal some important young assets to get what he perceives as help for now.

Definitely put me in the camp that would like him to get on with it already.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by FakenHaken

I don't know Brian Burke to be honest. He may turn out to be the worst GM in the history of the Calgary Flames.

I think Craig Button is safe there.

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

I think Craig Button is safe there.

I'll go one better Doug Risebrough is even safer.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

Anyways, put me in the camp that has more faith in Burke's ability to get value for assets than Jay Feaster.

Also, put me in the camp that is somewhat afraid that Burke will go scorched earth on this franchise and deal some important young assets to get what he perceives as help for now.

Definitely put me in the camp that would like him to get on with it already.

Scorched earth would imply trading all our vets/UFAs, wouldn't it?

Burke isn't concerned about help for now because there is absolutely nothing he can do that 'helps us now'. The team isn't one or two players away from mattering, it's minimum two or three strong drafts away from mattering. He knew this when he got here.

Let him do the job. Waiting for Vanek and Moulson is the right thing to do. Teams that lose out on those two will not quit and go home.

[FlameZilla]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Scorched earth would imply trading all our vets/UFAs, wouldn't it?

Burke isn't concerned about help for now because there is absolutely nothing he can do that 'helps us now'. The team isn't one or two players away from mattering, it's minimum two or three strong drafts away from mattering. He knew this when he got here.

Let him do the job. Waiting for Vanek and Moulson is the right thing to do. Teams that lose out on those two will not quit and go home.

No, by 'scorched earth' I was implying he could cut loose young players and prospects he doesn't rate. Burke has implied a few times that he would like to speed up the rebuild, and I can see him using some of our A-list prospects (minus Monahan) to acquire an over-rated/expensive big name player.

As a disclaimer, I'm not saying this is going to happen, but it's a fear I have in the back of my mind — not unlike some peoples fear of Fukushima tainted salmon or reptilian royal families.

[AcGold]

Ownership has veto power no? I'd think they'd just squash any shortsighted trades like that

[strombad]

Originally Posted by FlameZilla

No, by 'scorched earth' I was implying he could cut loose young players and prospects he doesn't rate. Burke has implied a few times that he would like to speed up the rebuild, and I can see him using some of our A-list prospects (minus Monahan) to acquire an over-rated/expensive big name player.



As a disclaimer, I'm not saying this is going to happen, but it's a fear I have in the back of my mind — not unlike some peoples fear of Fukushima tainted salmon or reptilian royal families.

Why do you think that?
It's not something he's ever done before, at least to my knowledge.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by FakenHaken

I think it is great that there were probably 4 maybe 5 people in the room that night. Iginla, Iginla's Agent maybe by phone if not there, Feaster, Weisbrod, Murray Edwards. We know by fact exactly what took place almost as if we watched it all go down on TV. Not sure how that's possible, but anyways.

For example and I don't know the real truth as I wasn't there. I believe they received two legitimate offers from two teams on Iginla's Trade list. He was asked the question by the Calgary Flames which team would you like to go to. Iginla responded once asked the question with well if you are happy with both deals but I can choose then I choose Pittsburgh. Why not he was likely to think he would play with the best player in the world. At that point the offer from the Penguins was accepted.

However, you could be more than right as there wasn't one person from CP in that room so I can't even begin to claim I'm right and you are wrong. Personally though I'd like to believe no one bent anyone over, the Calgary Flames treated Iginla fair by asking the question and he did the Calgary Flames good by saying if it is all good by them then I choose Pittsburgh. I think Feaster did fine there in fact I thought Iginla to maximize value should have been traded the year before but ownership probably wasn't going to allow that. So Feaster did the best he could given the circumstances.

That's the story because that's pretty much what was explained by Chiarelli, another party intimately involved with the process.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Burke isn't concerned about help for now because there is absolutely nothing he can do that 'helps us now'. The team isn't one or two players away from mattering, it's minimum two or three strong drafts away from mattering. He knew this when he got here.

I wouldn't be so sure.

The Flames' acting general manager was asked what type of players he would pursue in a trade situation.

"We would like to get a player who will help us right away, and if that is not possible then our next choice is a player who is close to playing that we think could make us better next year. And if not, we would look at draft choices," said Burke.
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=444853

I have real doubts about the willingess of Flames management to patiently rebuild the roster through the draft. They're already looking for shortcuts and reclamation projects instead of demonstrating confidence in their own scouting and drafting ability.

The Sabres are doing it right:

2012: 2x 1st rounders, 1x 2nd
2013: 2x 1st rounders, 3x 2nd
2014: 3x 1st rounders, 4x 2nd *

* Assuming they get a 1st for Moulson, NYI's 1st this year, and at least a 2nd for Miller or Ott. If the NYIs defer, then 2x 1st rounders in 2015.

That's what a rebuild looks like. The Flames got off to a good start last season. If they don't walk into 2014 draft with more 1st or 2nd rounders, I'd hesitate to even call it a rebuild. Drafting the regular allotment of players each draft isn't any kind of a strategy to dramatically improve over your rivals in the conference, all of whom already have stronger rosters and have the same allotment of picks you do.

[Rubicant]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

"We would like to get a player who will help us right away, and if that is not possible then our next choice is a player who is close to playing that we think could make us better next year. And if not, we would look at draft choices," said Burke.[/I]
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=444853

I didn't like that quote either. We shall see what actually transpires as perhaps Burke is simply telling the media one thing while desiring the other so as to not give his cards away, but they really should be focusing on acquiring draft picks.

Lots of them.

[FakenHaken]

Originally Posted by nik-

That's the story because that's pretty much what was explained by Chiarelli, another party intimately involved with the process.

Right and that story is acceptable because Chiarelli doesn't have any other agenda. Oh that's right he needed to save face with the franchise and because he told everyone including TSN we have struck a deal when in fact he didn't have the paper work to support his claims.

Personally, I am more willing to accept the story from the people who were actually in that boardroom meeting, over someone who wasn't present and would not have actually even been on a conference call in that meeting.

[Vinny01]

All rebuilds must look the same according to Cliff. Flames had 3 1st round picks last year and currently hold a top 5 selection this year. Burke has not traded a single pick yet because he says he wants a player that can help now (Pretty sure he means someone in the 20-23 age range) or a prospect knocking on the door doesn't mean he isn't rebuilding the team the right way.

This next part isn't pointed at Cliff but it is funny that the Burke haters have quickly become Feaster apologists. Burke knows we are in for a couple hard years but you look at what Edmonton has done by trading all their vets for picks and wing forced to put their lotto picks in leadership roles at 18-19. Those players should not have to carry the load. In addition Calgary has some nice prospects in the 18-21 age range that are knocking on the door. Outside of Bouma, Backlund, Brodie, Colborne they lack 22-25 year olds on the roster. If Burke can add a nice young player and a 2nd round pick this deadline we will be in fine shape in terms of the rebuild. Still poised to pick high on 2015 where we can potentially land the next superstar this franchise needs