[PGT] TBL 2 CGY 0 - shutout again

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by AcGold

I'm not skeptical about Burke so much as I look at the history of major trades in the past few years and don't see much in terms of legitimate returns. Phaneuf, Regehr, Iginla, Bouwmeester all gone. Look at what we have in return for those 4 assets. I understand what the situation is with Burke, his history and all just don't have a good feeling about the way things are headed. If the 4 key ufa's coming up gets nobody usable in the NHL we are really screwed.

That doesn't really make any sense to me. Burke wasn't the guy who dealt Phaneuf, Regehr, Iginla or Bouwmeester so using the value they got back as a predictor for what Burke will get for Stajan/Cammalleri/etc makes no sense. Plus it is still to early to completely judge the Iginla and Bouwmeester trades. If Berra develops into a decent #1 goalie then the Bouwmeester trade looks fine. If Hanowski/Agostino turn out then the Iginla trade also looks fine. Too early to write any of those guys off. Do I think somebody else might've gotten slight more for Bouwmeester/Iginla? Perhaps. But that doesn't mean we got complete crap. Those first rounders in a deep year at the minimum were very valuable.

Do you mean nobody usable in the NHL right away? Or nobody usable down the line? He's not likely to get anybody usable right away, it's likely he auctions off Stajan/Cammalleri/Stempniak/Butler for prospects/picks and then it will take years to judge those trades accurately.

Are we screwed for competing this year and next? You betcha. That's the direction we're going, the rebuilding direction. The direction where we accumulate as many young assets as we can and then deal some of them down the line to fill out the team as needed. It isn't enjoyable. It isn't painless.

I guess it depends on your expectations. I currently expect them to lose almost every game. So I'm not crazy disappointed when they do. I still like watching the young players we do have. On the bright side Backlund was given by far the most ice time amongst forwards tonight and he looks like he's rebounded from his mediocre start to the season. He's showing he could be part of the solution. So is Monahan, Brodie, Gio, Russell, Bouma, and potentially Colborne.

I'm surprised people aren't focusing more on how great the Heat have been this year with a very young core. That shows promise, some glimmers of hope, some development. We'll see that fruits of that later this season and in upcoming seasons.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

I don't think the deadline deals will be all that much better than what could transpire now.

With the new cap, deadline day is going to become a yawn fest.

Contenders and want to be contenders will give up more now I think. At deadline there will be fewer teams in the mix.

Also I would prefer to see youth development accelerated by 15-20 games. Create some holes for them to fill and let Hartley work his hard work ethic magic on them.

What you don't take into account in that analysis is that a lot of the contenders are up against the cap and it is harder for them to take salaries on earlier in the season. That is why a lot of deals get pushed out to the trade deadline. Especially this year with the cap having gone down and not up.

Go take a quick look at the front page of
http://www.capgeek.com/
and you'll see that not many teams have wiggle room at the moment. Vancouver for example only has 1.8 million available now but would have double that available at the deadline. Many teams will have double or triple the cap space available come the deadline.

What's really surprising this year is how many teams won't have any wiggle room at the deadline either. There are 5 teams right now that will have less than 1 million in cap space available at the deadline and thus can't really add anything without subtracting salary.

On the bright side we may be able to take advantage of this year and everyone having cap problems by taking on an expiring salary of a disappointing player. Burke has the opportunity to really work his cap space this deadline and try to charge a premium for teams needing some cap dumps. I'm thinking of the type of deal like a Malakhov to SJ for a 1st rounder. Not that I expect to get a 1st rounder for adding a cap dump but if Burke can work something creative along those lines we could get assets out of nothing. Burke did this to us when he took on Wayne Primeau and we had to give a 2nd rounder in the deal to dump the salary.

[JobHopper]

Good game by Karri Ramo, stopping 27-29 shots.

Another good game by TJ Brodie, hope the Flames don't end up wasting his best years.

Lightning just bigger, faster and stronger, Flames didn't look good at all.

Last few games haven't been great but this was the worst so far.

Martin St. Louis skates better than anyone out there still at his age.

Are the Flames lazy? How can you be so flat on home ice?

A couple good shifts and a couple good hustles and that's it.

So far not to impressed with Kevin Westgarth, hope there isn't much more of this type of player be acquired. Burke probably only got him cause he's a right handed shot.

Brian McGrattan is fine for that role plus he works hard.

Team stats pretty even with both teams going 0/5 on the powerplay. Do the Flames not practice the powerplay? That's unacceptable being that bad and that unorganized on your home ice. (17% for 20th at home in the league currently)

I don't see how the NHL is considering expansion when they don't even have enough good players to stock the teams they have right now.

That was a mismatch tonight.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

What you don't take into account in that analysis is that a lot of the contenders are up against the cap and it is harder for them to take salaries on earlier in the season. That is why a lot of deals get pushed out to the trade deadline. Especially this year with the cap having gone down and not up.

Go take a quick look at the front page of
http://www.capgeek.com/
and you'll see that not many teams have wiggle room at the moment.

What's really surprising this year is how many teams won't have any wiggle room at the deadline either.

On the bright side we may be able to take advantage of this year and everyone having cap problems by taking on an expiring salary of a disappointing player. Burke has the opportunity to really work his cap space this deadline and try to charge a premium for teams needing some cap dumps.

Hope so, we keep hearing about that option. Would be great to get a decent but over priced vet and a bunch of picks for Grats as an example (his contract is near the min).

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I'm surprised people aren't focusing more on how great the Heat have been this year with a very young core. That shows promise, some glimmers of hope, some development. We'll see that fruits of that later this season and in upcoming seasons.

I agree with a lot of what you posted prior to this.

However, has Burke not stated that he is not particularly enthralled with the NHL prospect potential in Abbotsford?

Please correct me if he did not say that.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

That doesn't really make any sense to me. Burke wasn't the guy who dealt Phaneuf, Regehr, Iginla or Bouwmeester so using the value they got back as a predictor for what Burke will get for Stajan/Cammalleri/etc makes no sense. Plus it is still to early to completely judge the Iginla and Bouwmeester trades. If Berra develops into a decent #1 goalie then the Bouwmeester trade looks fine. If Hanowski/Agostino turn out then the Iginla trade also looks fine. Too early to write any of those guys off. Do I think somebody else might've gotten slight more for Bouwmeester/Iginla? Perhaps. But that doesn't mean we got complete crap. Those first rounders in a deep year at the minimum were very valuable.

I know he wasn't the one made the deals obviously, it's just a bad trend for the Flames in the past and until it's turned around it's hard to just believe in current management when it looks more unorganized and chaotic than ever (we don't even have a gm).

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Do you mean nobody usable in the NHL right away?

Either or, useful players that produce a lot for us over several years that are valuable assets that other teams want.

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Are we screwed for competing this year and next? You betcha. That's the direction we're going, the rebuilding direction. The direction where we accumulate as many young assets as we can and then deal some of them down the line to fill out the team as needed. It isn't enjoyable. It isn't painless.

I guess it depends on your expectations. I currently expect them to lose almost every game. So I'm not crazy disappointed when they do. I still like watching the young players we do have. On the bright side Backlund was given by far the most ice time amongst forwards tonight and he looks like he's rebounded from his mediocre start to the season. He's showing he could be part of the solution. So is Monahan, Brodie, Gio, Russell, Bouma, and potentially Colborne.

I'm surprised people aren't focusing more on how great the Heat have been this year with a very young core. That shows promise, some glimmers of hope, some development. We'll see that fruits of that later this season and in upcoming seasons.

I'm not as certain as you are, the potential for us to turn things around, develop our prospects, trade for specific role players and improve slowly is a possibility. It's also possible we botch a few more trades, lose our ufa's for nothing and end up sucking for 10 years. I'm not cynical, just a realistic possibility based on the management abilities the Flames presented for a long time. If we get less than a few 2nd round picks for the upcoming ufa's then we are truly screwed.

[djsFlames]

Well we're pretty bad. The rebuild is showing pretty clearly now. I was afraid of this, but am not surprised in the slightest.

I guess the team was getting tired of staying close in 90% of their games (commendable) only to fall out of the stratosphere of playoff contention just a couple months in. I understand you can't keep up that effort forever (to compensate for lack of talent) but being shut out back to back by rivals followed by 1 goal over two home games is just a putrid display of effort on their part.

Ramo is the big positive for me right now.. Other than that.. play bad for Ekblad?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by timbit

I agree with a lot of what you posted prior to this.

However, has Burke not stated that he is not particularly enthralled with the NHL prospect potential in Abbotsford?

Please correct me if he did not say that.

I don't have the exact quote but I believe it was more along the lines of...

he's not sure how many top prospects we have on the Heat

Which is a fair statement IMO. I'm not sure how many top prospects we have on the Heat. Ortio is looking like he may be a bluechipper in goal. Billins is having a great year but I don't know if he projects as a top 4 NHL defenseman. Ramage/Wotherspoon are good prospects but again, not really top 3 defensemen most likely. Ferland may turn into a legit top three line powerforward. Hanowski may as well. Knight is looking good but maybe more as a depth player than a top two liner. Same goes for Reinhart. Granlund may be our best bet at a top two line forward.

So outside of Baertschi (who only got sent there after the Burke quote) and Ortio do we really have any guys we project being top two line players for sure or top three defensemen? I don't believe so. Probably somebody will surprise out of the Heat group. Granlund and Ferland might be two who do. But that is basically what I take Burke to be saying, we don't know if most of these guys are top end prospects.

I think Burke's point was that many of our best prospects aren't on the Heat. At the time Baertschi wasn't. Sieloff is injured and hasn't played at all this season. Gillies, Poirier, Klimchuk, Jankowski, Gaudreau aren't on the Heat yet. Those are probably 5 of our top 7-8 highest potential prospects. Even guys like Agostino and Arnold aren't there yet.

I wish someone would link the quote because I think the wording gets warped when people have been paraphasing it. But when I heard it it didn't give me cause for concern. It would be nice to hear more of Burke's thoughts on the Heat players as the year goes on. Undoubtedly we'll see which guys the organization thinks have good upside after the trade deadline hits and we're forced to recall some prospects.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

*Shudder*

Those guys had less talent than any centre on the Flames right now.



I don't think anyone enjoys rebuilds. But its hard to improve the team overnight. In our case there's not going to be any gain without some pain. This is a tough phase that many have been calling for for years. We're only what, about 1 season in?



I don't think we'll go full Oiler. Burke knows too much more about building a winner from the GM seat than Tambellini, Lowe, MacTavish, etc. Why wouldn't we be happy about draft day? In fact I'm much more confident about the draft with Burke at the helm because he emphasizes some attributes that we completely lack (size and strength combined with skill/skating). Plus he has a good history of drafting high and making trades.

Rebuilds are to be endured, not enjoyed. I'm not sure what some of you were expecting...

Well I don't recall the flames announcing their intent to compete for last place and deliver a crap product until further notice, so that's never been my expectation. I've never bought the losing = winning argument though so maybe I just blocked the message out.

But that aside, if the flames aren't going full oiler and losing on purpose what are they doing? Just hanging out until a Kessel or Phanuef deal comes along? Maybe I am too hung up on getting ripped off to wait til summer and the big reveal, when Burke unveils his creation in extreme team makeover. I'd like some sense of direction before my renewal notice comes.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

I was bought into Feaster's concept. Not sure if he could have pulled it off. But the regime change seems to have made the team preoccupied. They are terrible right now.

Basically Burke has created a big giant mess to fix IMO. He is wearing a #### ton of hats rights now, but his focus either needs to be on fixing this team or hiring a guy to do it. He is failing at both, I know this because he leaks everything to the media so the fact we have not heard anything yet means bad news.

Smart people fire someone when they have a replacement lined up. Flames are in full ###### mode right now.

Exactly!

I don't want to same things as you as a fan but I do want them to #### or get off the pot. Burke threw a hand grenade in the organization then went walkabout.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

Well I don't recall the flames announcing their intent to compete for last place and deliver a crap product until further notice, so that's never been my expectation. I've never bought the losing = winning argument though so maybe I just blocked the message out.

But that aside, if the flames aren't going full oiler and losing on purpose what are they doing? Just hanging out until a Kessel or Phanuef deal comes along? Maybe I am too hung up on getting ripped off to wait til summer and the big reveal, when Burke unveils his creation in extreme team makeover. I'd like some sense of direction before my renewal notice comes.

The Iginla and Bouwmeester dumps for prospects/picks certainly announced a rebuild. They announced they were rebuilding after Feaster finally had to admit it. We didn't contend with those guys as our best forward/defenseman and clearly we aren't contending without them either.

They didn't announce they were gunning for last but rebuilding when the Western Conference seems to be at an all time high for competitiveness is going to mean a lot of losing whether you want to be last or not.

I still don't get why people are saying there is no direction. The direction is accumulating as many young assets as possible in the form of draft picks and prospects. That is what rebuilding is. You grow and develop them together and then when they are close to competing you deal some of your young players or picks for what you need to complete a contender.

We should be able to acquire a lot more young assets this trade deadline and draft. The on-ice product will become more entertaining as our young players develop and start to crack the NHL lineup.

The rebuild is clearly hardest on the season ticket holders. No way to sugarcoat that. Paying to watch losers hurts more than just turning on the TV to watch losers.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

Basically Burke has created a big giant mess to fix IMO. He is wearing a #### ton of hats rights now, but his focus either needs to be on fixing this team or hiring a guy to do it. He is failing at both, I know this because he leaks everything to the media so the fact we have not heard anything yet means bad news.

That seems like an absurdly stupid assumption to make. Obviously he doesn't leak everything to the media. No one could run an NHL team that way.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by timbit

I agree with a lot of what you posted prior to this.

However, has Burke not stated that he is not particularly enthralled with the NHL prospect potential in Abbotsford?

Please correct me if he did not say that.

If you take everything Brian Burke says at face value you're gonna have a bad time.

[dino7c]

think they have the balls to raise ticket prices again this off season?


I know I know supply in demand spare me, this is a horrible product

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

The Iginla and Bouwmeester dumps for prospects/picks certainly announced a rebuild. They announced they were rebuilding after Feaster finally had to admit it. We didn't contend with those guys as our best forward/defenseman and clearly we aren't contending without them either.

They didn't announce they were gunning for last but rebuilding when the Western Conference seems to be at an all time high for competitiveness is going to mean a lot of losing whether you want to be last or not.

I don't (didn't) equate rebuild with deliberately awful oilers style. I don't recall the flames doing so either. To me there is a difference. If not to you, fair enough.

I still don't get why people are saying there is no direction. The direction is accumulating as many young assets as possible in the form of draft picks and prospects. That is what rebuilding is. You grow and develop them together and then when they are close to competing you deal some of your young players or picks for what you need to complete a contender.

Why do you think that's what Burke is doing? I don't recall that approach in Toronto or Anaheim and those aren't the words I've heard him use in the media.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

I don't (didn't) equate rebuild with deliberately awful oilers style. I don't recall the flames doing so either. To me there is a difference. If not to you, fair enough.

I think there's a difference too. Because Oilers management was incompetent and didn't sign good veterans, didn't know how to build a team. They drafted the same type of player year after year (offensive skilled wingers for the most part) without regard to how to build a team. They don't seem to know how to shore up their weaknesses or build a forward group that is well balanced. They don't seem to realize the importance of defensive play, goaltending or they've overrated both those parts of their team for years.

I think Burke does know how to build a balanced team, I think he knows the value of big top two defensemen, big #1 centres, big powerforwards. I think he's more honest about how competitive a team is. Clearly the Oilers were deluded at the very start of the rebuild thinking they were contenders. They've been deluded this year thinking they could turn the corner. So I don't think our rebuild will take as long as theirs is taking because Burke knows more about building a contender than their braintrust does.

I think one thing you aren't putting enough stock on is just how dominant the Western Conference is this year. That is making us look even worse. In a way it was a great year to start rebuilding because we'll get a high pick mostly due to how crazy good the west is and how average our team is. In the East we might actually be somewhat competitive.

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

Why do you think that's what Burke is doing? I don't recall that approach in Toronto or Anaheim and those aren't the words I've heard him use in the media.

Well he had to rebuild or at least retool in TOR. And frankly the Kessel deal doesn't look that bad if they don't sustain as many injuries as they did in the Seguin year. If it was two picks in the 6-15 range instead of being #2 and #8 the deal looks perfectly fine to me for one of the best goal scoring wingers in the game. Let's not forget Kessel was very young at the time. EDM was wiling to give what, 4 first rounders for Tomas Vanek? Philly was wiling to give 4 first rounders for Shea Weber? Two 1sts and a 2nd for a top 10 NHL scorer who's very young isn't that bad really. That Vanek offer sheet would've been one of the biggest catastrophies if Buffalo hadn't matched.

ANA was in completely different situation that we are in now so his approach will be justifiably completely different.

It's clear we're rebuilding. So I don't know what else you expect Burke to be doing. Some people seem to think Burke = impatience, impatience = botched rebuild or no rebuild. I don't believe in those equations.

As I've said I think Burke will be in the asset accumulation mode this trade deadline and draft. I think he'll look to improve the team through every avenue possible including trades and free agency. I don't think he intends to attempt to finish last next year but despite his best efforts I don't see him turning us into a contender within a half year so we're probably gonna suck next year too.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Teams don't value players strictly for their last few games. They will take into account Cammalleri's entire career and body of work. Certainly they do keep some up to date scouting but there's no way Cammalleri has completely tanked his value.

Wrong. Not to say they only look at the last few games but trends are huge. Players who are trending down would not net you an otherwise equivalent forward of similar age and repertoire on an upswing. If Cammy had 10 more goals this season and was the flagship to a very mediocre Flames team, do you not think other contenders would see that?

[Jason14h]

Jeez and I can't imagine why the owners/GM were hesitant to trade Iginla a few years ago when we could have maximized his return!

A few people suggested this team would be the least talented in the NHL before the season began and were lambasted. I don't know how this can surprise anyone. My only surprise is how well they played early on.

Least talented team on paper in the NHL (And the 2nd lowest payroll and rebuilding)

Why is anyone surprised?

[YogiBerra]

Goons/Players who do not belong in the NHL
Mcgrattan
Westgarth
Galiardi
D.jones
Colborne
Butler
O'brien
Smith

Almost half of our roster how does that happen?

Fringe nhl players/rookies
Stempniak
backlund
monahan
stajan
byron
bouma

Below average nhl players
Cammaleri
wideman

That leaves hudler, gio, russel, glencross, smid, and brodie who can perform up to expectations in the role their given. The other half of our team is complimentary players at best this team is a joke. Feaster has not improved a team from the previous year in the ~12 years he was a general manager should we really be suprised? This team of smurfs would barely top the ahl standings. Even though this was expected these games are getting painful to watch; it is going to take at least three years to fix this tire fire feaster left behind and that is being generous. It's hard to see anything positive in this season short of the trade deadline and the draft; a bottom two finish is guaranteed. I guess there is only two hyped draft picks in this class in reinhart and ekblad, so thanks for screwing this team feaster?

Ramo is looking good for how ####ty our defence is, Berra is looking better but still has a long way to go if he wants to be anything but a backup.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by YogiBerra

Goons/Players who do not belong in the NHL
Mcgrattan
Westgarth
Galiardi
D.jones
Colborne
Butler
O'brien
Smith

Almost half of our roster how does that happen?

Fringe nhl players/rookies
Stempniak
backlund
monahan
stajan
byron
bouma

Below average nhl players
Cammaleri
wideman

That leaves hudler, gio, russel, glencross, smid, and brodie who can perform up to expectations in the role their given. The other half of our team is complimentary players at best this team is a joke. Feaster has not improved a team from the previous year in the ~12 years he was a general manager should we really be suprised? This team of smurfs would barely top the ahl standings. Even though this was expected these games are getting painful to watch; it is going to take at least three years to fix this tire fire feaster left behind and that is being generous. It's hard to see anything positive in this season short of the trade deadline and the draft; a bottom two finish is guaranteed. I guess there is only two hyped draft picks in this class in reinhart and ekblad, so thanks for screwing this team feaster?

I'm not saying you're wrong in thinking any of this, but how does Colborne not belong in the NHL? And how are Cammy and Wideman below average NHLers? Is there any methodology to this or is it a matter of opinion?